IR Camera and courses

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Transcat Order#: 98589TE Model: FLUKE Ti10Mfg Part#: FLUKE-TI10 Our Price: $4,495.00 USD Availability: Usually ships within 2-4 weeks Qty: This product available for shipping to U.S. & Canada only Print Product Page Manufacturer PDF Email a Friend

• ** NEW - Available 1/15/2008
• Built for tough work environments, these high-performance, fully radiometric imagers are ideal for troubleshooting electrical installations, electro-mechanical equipment, process equipment, HVAC/R equipment and other applications
• Temperature measurement range -20 °C to +250 °C (-4 °F to + 482 °F)
• Intuitive, three-button menu is easy to use—simply navigate with the push of a thumb
• Accuracy - ± 5 °C or 5 % (whichever is greater)
• Come with patent-pending IR-Fusion® Technology, which provides enhanced problem detection and analysis capabilities through the blending of visual and infrared images in various different viewing modes; including Full IR thermal, picture-in-picture, or automatic blend visual and thermal images
• Rugged and Reliable…Optimized for

--

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

In one word Fantastic.
Once again NACHI is far ahead of all other
HOME INSPECTIONS ASSOCIATIONS .

I just finished the Home Inspection Course put on by John McKenna and Will Decker.
Well laid out great presentation .
I loved the idea of not having to leave home and drive many miles stay in a hotell room .
This conference call worked well , I could mute my phone and just listen to the Information and turn it on when I wanted to ask a question .
Most of us left our phone on all the times and it was so easy to ask the teacher or one of the other students a question.

Thanks again to Nick, John, and Will , very much appreciated .

[bdoles2]

How does the Fluke rate compared to the Flir models? Anyone have one (Fluke)?

[dharris]

Originally Posted by bdoles2

How does the Fluke rate compared to the Flir models? Anyone have one (Fluke)?

, Larger screen, clearer / better focus/ photos, than the standard B Cam,
option of full IR or PIP,

They also have a new $ 6900 model, TIR1, more selections
[ automatic blend visual and thermal images ] and a voice recorder.

[phinsperger]

from
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f11/line-ir-course-24920/

Originally Posted by rcooke

We are not looking for temperatures we are looking for comparison from one area to another.
I think you did not read the whole sentance .it is
( Accuracy - ± 5 °C or 5 % (which ever is greater) )

Yes Roy, I did read the whole sentence. ± 5 °C is an absolute amount. The absolute amount of 5 % can change depending on what its 5% of. That's my question. The other features of the Fluke seem to be better than the BCam with the exception of the accuracy. If I read this correct then the Fluke accurcy is no where near that of the BCam.

Does it matter for qualitative scan such as those done during home inspections? Probably not. But if I want to broaden my use of the camera and possible do PM industral scans then the accuracy would be very important in a quantitative scan.

Being new to this I don't really know, that's why I asking.

[Lawrence Olsen]

I'm Sorry but this screams CHEAP to me. Maybe I like quality to much but to buy a camera with a 10C possible difference seams like allot to me. The FLIR EX320 is 4C. This is less than half. Yes I spent more money but are we giving a service of Quality or Quantity.

This idea that it is cheap to get into the IR field and charge little to nothing to add the IR service to you HI service is not good for the IR industry. If you think that you can buy a cheap camera and produce the same results as I can with the high quality you have a lesson to learn.

IR is not all easy. These are not point and shoot devices. They require training and knowledge about what you see in your camera and how to set the camera. I know that I don't know everything but people that pickup cheap cameras and have no training are going to ruin the IR industry for those of us that make IR our primary business.

So think about what you want before you buy a camera Quality or Quantity.

Thanks
Lawrence Olsen
Universal Inspections

[William J. Decker]

Good points, Lawrence.

Part of getting the right training is learning how to read the specs of different cameras and weight that against the price.

One point, specificly for HIs, is that we rarely need an actual temperature reading for our inspections. Even with the quality cameras, setting of the E, tref and relectivity is needed is you want anything more than the appearent temp.

With HIs, Delta T is more important. If I need an actual, I usually just put a calibrated contact termocouple on the surface and use that.

And remember, IR thermoeters have the same issue.

Hope this helps;

[William Warner]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Olsen

I'm Sorry but this screams CHEAP to me. Maybe I like quality to much but to buy a camera with a 10C possible difference seams like allot to me. The FLIR EX320 is 4C. This is less than half. Yes I spent more money but are we giving a service of Quality or Quantity.

This idea that it is cheap to get into the IR field and charge little to nothing to add the IR service to you HI service is not good for the IR industry. If you think that you can buy a cheap camera and produce the same results as I can with the high quality you have a lesson to learn.

IR is not all easy. These are not point and shoot devices. They require training and knowledge about what you see in your camera and how to set the camera. I know that I don't know everything but people that pickup cheap cameras and have no training are going to ruin the IR industry for those of us that make IR our primary business.

So think about what you want before you buy a camera Quality or Quantity.

Thanks
Lawrence Olsen
Universal Inspections

Great post Lawrence!

I've been trying to posit that the thermal extremes observed in industrial applications do not exist in residential applications, hence a higher quality camera that can 'view' smaller temperature differentials should be considered in the home inspection field.

It's been posted more than once that Level 3 thermographers have no idea how to perform a home inspection let alone apply or use an infrared camera in residential inspections... yet their advise has been taken on which IR camera is "good enough" for residential use... this makes no sense to me.

Thanks again. I agree wholeheartedly agree with your post.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Olsen

I'm Sorry but this screams CHEAP to me. Maybe I like quality to much but to buy a camera with a 10C possible difference seams like allot to me. The FLIR EX320 is 4C. This is less than half. Yes I spent more money but are we giving a service of Quality or Quantity.

This idea that it is cheap to get into the IR field and charge little to nothing to add the IR service to you HI service is not good for the IR industry. If you think that you can buy a cheap camera and produce the same results as I can with the high quality you have a lesson to learn.

IR is not all easy. These are not point and shoot devices. They require training and knowledge about what you see in your camera and how to set the camera. I know that I don't know everything but people that pickup cheap cameras and have no training are going to ruin the IR industry for those of us that make IR our primary business.

So think about what you want before you buy a camera Quality or Quantity.

Thanks
Lawrence Olsen
Universal Inspections

Now if you want to try an interesting experience just as you read the above letter every time you se IRCamera mentally put in the words Home Inspector.

This is exactly what happens in our industry all the time ....
Cookie

I'm Sorry but this screams CHEAP to me. Maybe I like quality to much but to buy a camera with a 10C possible difference seams like allot to me. The .Home inspection company. This is less than half. Yes I spent more money but are we giving a service of Quality or Quantity.

This idea that it is cheap to get into the .Home Inspection...and charge little to nothing to add the Home Inspection to you HI service is not good for the Home Inspection. If you think that you can buy a Home Inspection and produce the same results as I can with the high quality you have a lesson to learn.

Home Inspectionis not all easy. These are not point and shoot devices. They require training and knowledge about what you see in your camera and how to set the camera. I know that I don't know everything but people that pickup cheap Home Inspections and have no training are going to ruin theHome Inspectionindustry for those of us that make Home Inspection our primary business.

So think about what you want before you buy a Home Inspection Quality or Quantity.

[Michael Larson]

Possibly dumb question but I don't think so.

OK all you IR guru, answer me some question.

Isn't the important spec the ability to resolve variations in temp.?

With the Fluke having a better detector resolution and visual camera too it has some attractive features. What do you guys think?

Since the Fluke Ti10/Ti25 has a stated sensitivity of 0.2/0.1 deg C in it's spec and Flir's BCAM spec is.15 deg. C is this important in HI applications?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accuracy of + or - 5 deg. C or 5% (which ever is greater) equates to 90 - 110 deg. c at 100 deg. C nominal.

While the same spec at 50 deg. C nominal equates to to 45-50 deg. C.

Not very relevant to an HI IMHO. Agree or not??

As Will says, use a thermocouple if you want an aaccurate temp for either camera..

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Possibly dumb question but I don't think so.

OK all you IR guru, answer me some question.

Isn't the important spec the ability to resolve variations in temp.?

With the Fluke having a better detector resolution and visual camera too it has some attractive features. What do you guys think?

Since the Fluke Ti10/Ti25 has a stated sensitivity of 0.2/0.1 deg C in it's spec and Flir's BCAM spec is.15 deg. C is this important in HI applications?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accuracy of + or - 5 deg. C or 5% (which ever is greater) equates to 90 - 110 deg. c at 100 deg. C nominal.
Close I think it is 95 deg-105 deg @ 100 deg C
While the same spec at 50 deg. C nominal equates to to 45-50 deg. C.

Not very relevant to an HI IMHO. Agree or not??

As Will says, use a thermocouple if you want an a accurate temp for either camera..

I am looking for Variance of temperatures to help make my decision.

...Cookie

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I am looking for Variance of temperatures to help make my decision.

...Cookie

Roy what do you mean?

Isn't sensitivity the most important issue?

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Possibly dumb question but I don't think so.

OK all you IR guru, answer me some question.

Isn't the important spec the ability to resolve variations in temp.?

With the Fluke having a better detector resolution and visual camera too it has some attractive features. What do you guys think?

Since the Fluke Ti10/Ti25 has a stated sensitivity of 0.2/0.1 deg C in it's spec and Flir's BCAM spec is.15 deg. C is this important in HI applications?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accuracy of + or - 5 deg. C or 5% (which ever is greater) equates to 90 - 110 deg. c at 100 deg. C nominal.

While the same spec at 50 deg. C nominal equates to to 45-50 deg. C.

Not very relevant to an HI IMHO. Agree or not??

As Will says, use a thermocouple if you want an aaccurate temp for either camera..

Good points, and I applaud you, Mike. You actually take the time to read the specs, understand them and compare them.

Usually, in HI applications, actual temp is not very important. We only deal within the -10 F to + 150 F (Sorry, I am hopelessly American when it comes to temps ) so the margin of error would be +- 0.5 and +- 7.5 (roughly). You have to remember that a cent degree is larger than an F degree, so this with be a little low.

As a practical point, the better the resolution of the camera (a good thing) the more densly packed the detector array is. If the camera is about the same size as the B-Cam, the array size would be about the same, so the thermal drift (the drift of temperature across the detector array, which would be a decising factor in the temp accuracy) is greater.

I can understand where thermographers who do preventative maint and quanititative determinations (heat loss in a radiating pipe, efficiencies, etc) would need that number to be as accurate as possible so that their calculations would be more accurate.

But, for HI applications, appearent temp is alomost always sufficient, even with this margin. We, primarily do qualitative, not quantitative inspections.

Sure, it has some good features. Double camera is nice, and so is "fusion". One thing that I like (and you need better resolution to do this) is the fairly short focal length. With this, you don't have to back up so much. You can take a good scan from 2', which you can't really do with the more inexpensive FLIRs.

I will withhold my judgment, though, until I have a chance to check one out for myself. I have asked the locak Fluke rep if I could borrow one for a week or so.

We will see.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Good points, and I applaud you, Mike. You actually take the time to read the specs, understand them and compare them.

Tnakd for your reply Will.

I've been reading specs for 30 years and it's important to remember that when manufacturers write them they try and gloss over their weak areas and highlight their strong ones. You have to be a very careful reader to pick up on this. Remember it is sales literature.

Th Fluke looks good right now but Iwill wait until you've had some hands on.

How about some side by sides from your experience?

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Roy what do you mean?

Isn't sensitivity the most important issue?

I think you will find Temp is not how decisions are made example
70 Deg to 90 deg or 60 deg to 80 deg should be vary comparable it helping to make a decision.
Listening to our FLIR teacher tell us it could be to our advantage to not even have temp on our reports.

Cookie

Micheal I expect you already know this and are just playing devils advocate.

I am just a novice on IR and like many still in a learning stage.
Taken three courses spent well over $600.00 on discs and books .
above what I have spent on every thing.
Rough guess overall $12,000;00

...Cookie