Latent Moisture - Part Two

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by Ron C. Bibler

Brian what camera did you use for that ir scan ?

Best

Ron

Fluke TiR

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by pogletree

Obviously not... Some do not need even a camera. It's a good practice to obtain a meter for the ones you do not see with the naked eye and IR shows an indication of moisture. Nice image though!!!

Thanks

Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared
The Snell Group
P.O. Box 6
Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA
Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460
pogletree@thesnellgroup.com
www.thesnellgroup.com

What was unusual was how the visible mold was not as evident on the lower wainscot section of the wall. I'm assuming that growth is not as rapid on "gloss" paint, the top half is a flat paint which shows the most growth. The source was a flooded basement, about 10" or so.

[John McKenna]

All my inspection come with IR.

When someone says "will you do an inspection without the IR
scan, so I can save money?"...

I reply...

"is it alright if there is hidden moisture in the house and I do not
report it?"

They always say "NO"... and I say "now you know why I will
not do an inspection without my IR camera".

It's a no brainer.

I just found 4 hidden moisture areas in a house today.
Don't leave home without your IR camera.

[David A. Andersen]

I find myself in the middle of the road on this one.

What the infrared camera can do is not known by the general public, as of yet. Asking someone if they want to spend another $125 over the cost of a normal home inspection for something they don't understand is not very productive.

I think that increasing your overall pricing in use by are on every inspection pays for itself in numerous ways.

Increased income per job.
You are going to find something in many cases.
The examples of what this technology can find gets around rapidly.
In a very short period of time I have begun receiving specific infrared inspection calls from people with problems that they know about.
The camera doesn't do any good in the case.
You don't learn how to use the camera when it's in the case.
You can't gather a library of reference photos for future use when you're depending on paid inspections only.

This week I did an inspection with infrared at an inflated price. I found a new construction home with no insulation on the second-floor. The builder hired me after repairs were made. They were still issues. The client rehired me again before closing. $1500 on an inspection where the client declined IR as an add-on. My inflated initial price covered use of the camera and produced two more inspections on the same house.

One other point, if you don't use it and get experience (even if it's for free) where are you going to get your experience from? This week I was also confronted in a new construction situation questioning the validity of the infrared camera to determine the lack of insulation in a home where there was no physical access to the attic. Due to the lack of accessibility there was no way for me to do follow-up investigations or use other equipment to verify the infrared findings. I was bombarded from six different corporate personnel, insulation company owners and HVAC contractors. I stood my ground. Eventually they knocked a hole in the ceiling and climbed into the attic space "he's right there is no insulation up here!".

This also covers the point concerning adequate education in the use of this equipment. We are not going to be received with open arms in the building community. If you make an ***** out of yourself one time, your credibility is shot forever.

[pogletree]

Originally Posted by bdoles2

What was unusual was how the visible mold was not as evident on the lower wainscot section of the wall. I'm assuming that growth is not as rapid on "gloss" paint, the top half is a flat paint which shows the most growth. The source was a flooded basement, about 10" or so.

You're on the right track about the paint Brian. Gloss paint is "sealed" and the flat paint has "open pores" that can trap moisture for extended periods of time. We all know mold grows with moisture...

Thanks

Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared
The Snell Group
P.O. Box 6
Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA
Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460
pogletree@thesnellgroup.com
www.thesnellgroup.com

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I find myself in the middle of the road on this one.

What the infrared camera can do is not known by the general public, as of yet. Asking someone if they want to spend another $125 over the cost of a normal home inspection for something they don't understand is not very productive.

I think that increasing your overall pricing in use by are on every inspection pays for itself in numerous ways.

Increased income per job.
You are going to find something in many cases.
The examples of what this technology can find gets around rapidly.
In a very short period of time I have begun receiving specific infrared inspection calls from people with problems that they know about.
The camera doesn't do any good in the case.
You don't learn how to use the camera when it's in the case.
You can't gather a library of reference photos for future use when you're depending on paid inspections only.

This week I did an inspection with infrared at an inflated price. I found a new construction home with no insulation on the second-floor. The builder hired me after repairs were made. They were still issues. The client rehired me again before closing. $1500 on an inspection where the client declined IR as an add-on. My inflated initial price covered use of the camera and produced two more inspections on the same house.

One other point, if you don't use it and get experience (even if it's for free) where are you going to get your experience from? This week I was also confronted in a new construction situation questioning the validity of the infrared camera to determine the lack of insulation in a home where there was no physical access to the attic. Due to the lack of accessibility there was no way for me to do follow-up investigations or use other equipment to verify the infrared findings. I was bombarded from six different corporate personnel, insulation company owners and HVAC contractors. I stood my ground. Eventually they knocked a hole in the ceiling and climbed into the attic space "he's right there is no insulation up here!".

This also covers the point concerning adequate education in the use of this equipment. We are not going to be received with open arms in the building community. If you make an ***** out of yourself one time, your credibility is shot forever.

David you are so correct the infrared camera spreads like wild fire I will be traveling 4 hours this Saturday to do a one year warranty scan. Received a call yesterday to do an inspection on a FSBO with basement water problems all of the Realtors in this town have stayed away from this home and did not want to list it because of the water problems.

[jrivera]

Originally Posted by dandersen

This also covers the point concerning adequate education in the use of this equipment. We are not going to be received with open arms in the building community. If you make an ***** out of yourself one time, your credibility is shot forever.

Amen to that

[Ron C. Bibler]

Been using IR on all my inspection and not providing any information to the buyers or agents unless they pay for the service. I shot this in a condo. A common wall 2x4 second story interior. The adjacent unit is the same set up open living room. No adjacent sun light. No plumbing in the areas adjacent to this scan. No plumbing/vent pipes from the lower units. The wall had 2 outlets and 1 cable outlet.
Q. has anyone had any hot wires in walls that looks like this ?
or around the base boards?

room temp 68F.
lower center area on the wall 72F.
streak up the wall 71F.

Best

Ron

[David A. Andersen]

Yes, but this does not look like that to me.

If a wire touches or almost touches the sheetrock you will get a definitive line. If it on the correct location of the stud, the stud bay will be warmer throughout.

The geometric pattern looks more like air movement to me.

[kweiss]

I agree with David. Appears to be some sort of air infiltration. Was it warmer outside?

[David A. Andersen]

He posted that this is a second story so there is definitely a potential heat source below.
It appears that the image scale adjustment has been pushed to the limits so we are not talking about a whole lot of heat here.

I would change the palate to rainbow to see the direction of heat flow. Electrical wiring may show rather consistent across a wider source whereas air flow will graduate proportionately away from the source/point of entry.

[Ron C. Bibler]

David i reset the palette to rain for your rivew.

david i think you are correct. it look like a heat source from the lower unit. may have a small void or a nott in the wall plate...

have another look.

Thanks

Ron

[David A. Andersen]

Large difference! No?

Now you can see the deficient insulation in the stud bay behind the Scale!

Another Tip: If you adjust the scale (move hi/lo towards each other) you can get all of the colors of the palette in the scan.

[pogletree]

Ron,

Conductive heat flow travels from warm to cool (your room being the cooler).
The only way to accurately figure out your image is to see whats on the other side or try looking at the first floor unit if possible. If this is not possible, you may want to scan the area at different times during the day.

Three degrees isn't a huge concern if your camera is set accurately (ie. correct emissivity value set in camera, and a calibration has been performed recently). If this hasn't been done, you should be careful stating temperatures to clients. Here is an easy way to check your calibration of your camera in the field.
Ambient conditions of 67-75 F
Reference subject (Human face) should be calm
Set emissivity to .98
View subject’s face directly from approximately 3’
Use area- max (preferred) or spot feature
Measure temperature of tear duct area.
Radiometric reading s/b ~92-96 F

Manually adjusting your range and span is a good practice using auto can sometimes "mask" thermal variances. Changing palettes can be misleading, you can actually make things appear that really is not there.

I hope this helps you and maybe even some other readers.

Thanks.
Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared #125356
The Snell Group
P.O. Box 6
Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA
Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460
pogletree@thesnellgroup.com
www.thesnellgroup.com

[David A. Andersen]

This "calibration" test leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion!

Ambient conditions; (+/-) 10 degrees

Radiometric reading results; (+/-) 4 degrees

No reference to rh

"Approximately 3’ "; SSR compliant for a tear duct?

"should be calm"; how do we determine this? Ever study polygraph examinations! You can tell if someone is lying with IR by looking into their face!

I don't think anyone here has a camera you can adjust the Range on. At any rate, the "Auto" setting does not change "Range" of the camera, it changes "Level & Span".

Changing palettes can be misleading, you can actually make things appear that really is not there.

Can you post an example of this?
Are you saying the palette is "making stuff up"?

I have always used melting ice to conduct a calibration check on my mid- temperature testing devices.

My camera manufacturer recommends the following testing procedure:
First, the calibration check should never be relied upon.
A field calibration check only addresses one temperature.
You must have a constant set up and procedure to do this properly.
Make sure nothing important changes between tests.
The target should be a metal container that produces high conductivity.
Make a high emissivity spot on the target large enough for the SSR/distance ratio.
The use of "melting ice" and water should be used to produce the desired test temperature (ice cubes are colder than 32°F, therefore the metal container).
An alternate is boiling water (at a rolling boil).

Most importantly, the conditions of this calibration test can be duplicated (which is an important scientific/legal requirement).

The materials required are more likely available at the home inspection site (metal cup, electricians tape, ice, water, known elevation). It is highly unlikely you will find a calm buyer, seller, real estate agent or home inspector at the home inspection site!