New Standards for Infrared Thermography

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

It's good that Will is willing to challenge the way things are said. Home
Inspectors have been sold a bill of goods for a long time concerning
infrared courses. Thanks Will, for making people think.

BTW... the ASTM and ASNT standards are not for home inspectors. Again
you have to go back ten years to figure out why old verbiage may not relate
to the HI industry standards of today and the inspectors needs as thermographers.

This kind of reasoning has gone unquestioned by inspectors not willing to think.

I could be wrong, but last I checked, there are electrical components in residential construction (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Electrical Systems & Rotating Equipment)

In addition, the term building envelope can apply to residential contruction as well, right? (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Building Envelopes)

Also, don't we have WDO/WDI in residential construction? (Standard for Infrared Inspections to Detect Pests and Pest Related Damage)

So, to suggest that these standards to not pertain to HI's is just ignorance.

Question: What procedures to you take if you encounter what you believe to be a "hot" breaker in a main panel? And please don't say "it looks hot in my camera, so you should have an electrician come out and further evaluate." If you are going to be using Infrared Technology in your Home Inspections, than you better be properly trained to interpret your findings.

We all have different opinions on how to use IR technology in HI work. I'm under the strong belief that if you are going to use it, then get trained to use it properly. Everything about using an IR camera in a home inspection goes beyond the industry standards. So, there has to be other industry standards for the HI's to reference.

If you are going to use the camera just to point and shoot then disclaim everything you see, then why use it?

Sorry for the rant....I need another cup of coffee

Kevin

[Carl Pennick]

Originally Posted by gbell

HI Carl,

The last I heard is that they are still working on a date for March or April. I will post it on the board when we have a confirmed date.

Thanks Greg

[Carl Pennick]

Originally Posted by krichardson

I could be wrong, but last I checked, there are electrical components in residential construction (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Electrical Systems & Rotating Equipment)

In addition, the term building envelope can apply to residential contruction as well, right? (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Building Envelopes)

Also, don't we have WDO/WDI in residential construction? (Standard for Infrared Inspections to Detect Pests and Pest Related Damage)

So, to suggest that these standards to not pertain to HI's is just ignorance.

Question: What procedures to you take if you encounter what you believe to be a "hot" breaker in a main panel? And please don't say "it looks hot in my camera, so you should have an electrician come out and further evaluate." If you are going to be using Infrared Technology in your Home Inspections, than you better be properly trained to interpret your findings.

We all have different opinions on how to use IR technology in HI work. I'm under the strong belief that if you are going to use it, then get trained to use it properly. Everything about using an IR camera in a home inspection goes beyond the industry standards.

If you are going to use the camera just to point and shoot then disclaim everything you see, then why use it?

Sorry for the rant....I need another cup of coffee

Kevin

Forget the coffee and hit the hard stuff after that rant!!

[dharris]

quote=wdecker
If there are industry standards for best practices (which there seem to be), why does one have to pay to read and learn from them?

Why do the professional organizations have to charge so much for these standards.
I would posit that if they were concerned about the quality of the work done, that they would make these standards more freely available.
Again, not trying to slam. It just seems to be counter productive.

I agree with will
The same should apply to HI orgs agreements, marketing info, along with stuff on members only areas, etc. where the only inspectors that pay an owner of a HI $s for can have access to, and use.

Same thing should apply to IR training for home inspectors.

I even believe HI should provide inspections for free, just think of what the customer could buy with that money if we didn't charge for an inspection.

Suggest this to obamma,I bet he will agree, and make it a part of his campaign to beat hillery

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by cpennick

Forget the coffee and hit the hard stuff after that rant!!

Nah...try and stay away from that stuff

Kevin

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by krichardson

I could be wrong, but last I checked, there are electrical components in residential construction (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Electrical Systems & Rotating Equipment)

In addition, the term building envelope can apply to residential contruction as well, right? (Standard for Infrared Inspection of Building Envelopes)

Also, don't we have WDO/WDI in residential construction? (Standard for Infrared Inspections to Detect Pests and Pest Related Damage)

So, to suggest that these standards to not pertain to HI's is just ignorance.

Question: What procedures to you take if you encounter what you believe to be a "hot" breaker in a main panel? And please don't say "it looks hot in my camera, so you should have an electrician come out and further evaluate." If you are going to be using Infrared Technology in your Home Inspections, than you better be properly trained to interpret your findings.

We all have different opinions on how to use IR technology in HI work. I'm under the strong belief that if you are going to use it, then get trained to use it properly. Everything about using an IR camera in a home inspection goes beyond the industry standards. So, there has to be other industry standards for the HI's to reference.

If you are going to use the camera just to point and shoot then disclaim everything you see, then why use it?

Sorry for the rant....I need another cup of coffee

Kevin

I agree exactly .
Mentoring and education is very very important.
Unfortunately we get many home inspectors who have very little of both coming into this industry.
I am taking every bit of education I can find on IR training.
I do think some of the courses do not supply much in the direction for examining a home .
We need more courses planned and directed directly for home inspectors.
Mentoring would be great unfortunately we at this time do not have enough well trained home inspectors to do this.

...Cookie

</IMG>

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by wdecker

If there are industry standards for best practices (which there seem to be), why does one have to pay to read and learn from them?

I think you and dnutts are missing the fact that some standards are government produced and often public record and some standards are produced by orgs such as UL, ASME, AGA, etc.

Standard development is a long process and those producing the standard have every right to charge for their work product. JMHO

We all want things free. How about you give me a free inspection or two.

[John McKenna]

What ASTM or ASNT standard do you reference in your reports, when doing a
home inspection? (None)

What infrared course did ASTM or ASNT create for home inspectors? (None)

We all believe in proper training, that is not the issue. We do not have to be
afraid of abandoning the ASTM or ASNT standards because the HI industry
has never used them to begin with.

A Level III ASNT certified thermographer cannot use an IR camera as a home
inspector. They don't know how, just ask them. The ASNT never certified
a single Level III thermographer for doing home inspections. That course was
created before infrared cameras were used by home inspectors.

The IR camera will not turn us into HVAC specialist, Electrical specialist, or Mold
specialist... those all require further training and sometimes an approved license.
But the IR camera will help a home inspector find problems related to these
fields, and more.

Inspectors should verify and report their findings as they always have.

If I find a hot breaker by touching it or with an IR camera, I still have to have proper
training to understand what I should do next, we all agree with that. If I find
moisture that is conducive to mold with my eyes or with an IR camera, I still have
to have proper training to understand what I should do next, we all agree with that...etc...

Proper training with an IR camera must relate to the field in which the person is going
to use it. A medical thermographer is not going to take a course on building science.
So why do inspectors think that courses that were not designed for them are the
path our industry should take? Why do home inspectors claim certain standards
are part of their IR training and then never use those standards?

If you use ASTM or ASNT standards, show me.?
If not, then you agree with me. You just did not realize it.

We can all find standards for electrical inspection within the ASTM, but I'm not going
to claim them if I do not actually use them while doing an inspection. The ASTM
has standards regarding pressure testing windows for moisture penetration. But
who sets up a timed and pressure regulated water blasting array on each window,
during their home inspections?

I am all for proper training... and the proper SoP... yes indeed. There are lots
of courses coming into the market place for inspectors now... but those that claim
their course follows ASTM or ASNT standards are just blowing smoke at
inspectors, who will never use those standards to do a home inspection.

Guess what? The FLIR-ITC building science course was not certified by the
ASNT. Why did FLIR allow that? Because they saw the need to create something
more relevant to the need that has developed for today's infrared scans in building
applications and was not present 10 years ago.

If someone wants to take advanced IR training, I think that is a great idea. But if I
had to choose between someone who had advanced IR training and someone who
had basic IR training, but was very strong in their construction background and
a seasoned inspector... I would choose the inspector with experience over the
one who had taken lots of unrelated IR classes and was short on inspector experience.

It takes much longer to become a good inspector and be properly trained in all
the various fields of our industry, than it takes to use the IR camera.

We do not measure the temperature of a moisture spot with an IR camera, we just
find it and report it.... So no matter how advanced your training is on all the formulas
that you can calculate with the IR temperature read outs... you are still no more advanced
at finding the wet spot, because the temperature of the wet spot is irrelevant in the home
inspection application.

Regarding the idea of paying for standards... It is a non issue, because I do not know
of a single inspector who pays money for standards each time they issue a home
inspection report. If anyone wants to endorse the idea then show me your receipts.

[Richard L. Bennett]

I think we should also have training and standards for using other type of photo equipment.

Yes, seeing things that one has never seen before requires knowledge to understand what one is seeing but some have to realize that the cost of this knowledge will be too high in the HI market to sell

Remember this is the age of the internet, not the $100 high school text book

rlb

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by rbennett

I think we should also have training and standards for using other type of photo equipment.

Yes, seeing things that one has never seen before requires knowledge to understand what one is seeing but some have to realize that the cost of this knowledge will be too high in the HI market to sell

Remember this is the age of the internet, not the $100 high school text book

rlb

Good point. I recommend that inspectors pay for the training they actually need, so the IR camera can
start feeding their family.

[Brian E. Kelly]

I have not read the ASNTRecommended Practice No. SNT-TC-1A for a number of years, but as I recall they are guidelines used to train IN HOUSE inspectors for EMPLOYERS, ie so much hands on experience, training, testing, and documentation. In a way similar to some if the ISO standards they can as rigorous as you want them to be as long as you capture all of the guidelines.

There is no reason a HI specific thermal imaging program could not be developed following the aforementioned standards.

If we are lucky Mario will buy the standards and just help us all out.
kidding Mario

[ldapkus]

Brian,
Don't get Mario started on paying for the F###$#$@&^ standards .

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

......did anyone call?

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Brian,

What happened to your greens?

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Brian,

What happened to your greens?

I am resting them Mario so they do not get worn out.