New Standards for Infrared Thermography

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

What ASTM or ASNT standard do you reference in your reports, when doing a
home inspection? (None)

What infrared course did ASTM or ASNT create for home inspectors? (None)

We all believe in proper training, that is not the issue. We do not have to be
afraid of abandoning the ASTM or ASNT standards because the HI industry
has never used them to begin with.

A Level III ASNT certified thermographer cannot use an IR camera as a home
inspector. They don't know how, just ask them. The ASNT never certified
a single Level III thermographer for doing home inspections. That course was
created before infrared cameras were used by home inspectors.

The IR camera will not turn us into HVAC specialist, Electrical specialist, or Mold
specialist... those all require further training and sometimes an approved license.
But the IR camera will help a home inspector find problems related to these
fields, and more.

Inspectors should verify and report their findings as they always have.

If I find a hot breaker by touching it or with an IR camera, I still have to have proper
training to understand what I should do next, we all agree with that. If I find
moisture that is conducive to mold with my eyes or with an IR camera, I still have
to have proper training to understand what I should do next, we all agree with that...etc...

Proper training with an IR camera must relate to the field in which the person is going
to use it. A medical thermographer is not going to take a course on building science.
So why do inspectors think that courses that were not designed for them are the
path our industry should take? Why do home inspectors claim certain standards
are part of their IR training and then never use those standards?

If you use ASTM or ASNT standards, show me.?
If not, then you agree with me. You just did not realize it.

We can all find standards for electrical inspection within the ASTM, but I'm not going
to claim them if I do not actually use them while doing an inspection. The ASTM
has standards regarding pressure testing windows for moisture penetration. But
who sets up a timed and pressure regulated water blasting array on each window,
during their home inspections?

I am all for proper training... and the proper SoP... yes indeed. There are lots
of courses coming into the market place for inspectors now... but those that claim
their course follows ASTM or ASNT standards are just blowing smoke at
inspectors, who will never use those standards to do a home inspection.

Guess what? The FLIR-ITC building science course was not certified by the
ASNT. Why did FLIR allow that? Because they saw the need to create something
more relevant to the need that has developed for today's infrared scans in building
applications and was not present 10 years ago.

If someone wants to take advanced IR training, I think that is a great idea. But if I
had to choose between someone who had advanced IR training and someone who
had basic IR training, but was very strong in their construction background and
a seasoned inspector... I would choose the inspector with experience over the
one who had taken lots of unrelated IR classes and was short on inspector experience.

It takes much longer to become a good inspector and be properly trained in all
the various fields of our industry, than it takes to use the IR camera.

We do not measure the temperature of a moisture spot with an IR camera, we just
find it and report it.... So no matter how advanced your training is on all the formulas
that you can calculate with the IR temperature read outs... you are still no more advanced
at finding the wet spot, because the temperature of the wet spot is irrelevant in the home
inspection application.

Regarding the idea of paying for standards... It is a non issue, because I do not know
of a single inspector who pays money for standards each time they issue a home
inspection report. If anyone wants to endorse the idea then show me your receipts.

John,

With all due respect, try thinking outside of the box for a change. Your comments are narrow minded. There are many inspectors, myself included, who offer additional services to thier clients. These services can include IR electrical inspections, IR moisture inspections, IR insulation inspections, etc.

***************************************

I was going to go on and on, but I'm tired.....it's not worth explaining.

Kevin

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

What ASTM or ASNT standard do you reference in your reports, when doing a
home inspection? (None)

Again, NOT ALL HOME INSPECTORS USE AN IR CAMERA JUST AS A TOOL DO HELP THEM DO HOME INSPECTIONS!!

Perfect example:

ASTM C 1060 – 90: Standard Practice for
Thermographic Inspection of Insulation Installations in
Envelope Cavities of Frame Buildings

Kevin

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by krichardson

Again, NOT ALL HOME INSPECTORS USE AN IR CAMERA JUST AS A TOOL DO HELP THEM DO HOME INSPECTIONS!!

Perfect example:

ASTM C 1060 – 90: Standard Practice for
Thermographic Inspection of Insulation Installations in
Envelope Cavities of Frame Buildings

Kevin

So true Kevin, but in the real world of NDT inspections if it is not an ASNT Cert from ASNT, you might as well print your own.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Kevin a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Lets thread drift a moment how are you liking your T-400 is it saving any time with the fusion aspect in placing the pic's in the report. Do you have the voice recorder and have you used it. With what I am reading it places the image with the voice per pic is this correct. BTW I do agree with you it appears I will be taking my Level 11 course starting 3-31-08 there is considerable more to the IR Business than home inspections.

[Mathew Hawley]

I think there are many additional services inspectors can do with their IR camera. Once I get the proper training I plan on getting water spray racks and doing moisture surveys on commercial buildings, high rise condos, resorts, new construction quality assurance.....the sky is the limit. There are great ways to market this service. IR use with building applications is still fairly new, there are a lot of opportunities. I guess it all depends on how far one wants to go with it.

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

So true Kevin, but in the real world of NDT inspections if it is not an ASNT Cert from ASNT, you might as well print your own.

Can you explain? I'm not sure what you mean.

Kevin

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by cbottger

Kevin a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Lets thread drift a moment how are you liking your T-400 is it saving any time with the fusion aspect in placing the pic's in the report. Do you have the voice recorder and have you used it. With what I am reading it places the image with the voice per pic is this correct. BTW I do agree with you it appears I will be taking my Level 11 course starting 3-31-08 there is considerable more to the IR Business than home inspections.

Charley,

The new camera is awesome, and yes, it is saving me a lot of time. I mainly use the "simultaneous" option where you can take an IR image and a digital image at the same time. The camera labels these images different, but they are tied together in the software (FLIR). So, it saves alot of time not having to use a seperate camera and transfer images from two different SD cards.

Voice recordings, written notes, and scetches can all be done from the camera in the field. Each will stay attached with the image when tranfering to the software.

The T-400 is awesome, but it is expensive!! Many HI's will find that the lower end cameras work just fine with standard home inspections, but if you plan on doing other things like commercial building work or any type of PdM, then you will need a higher end camera.

I bought the T-400 for my new business, which is coming along nicely. I just landed and completed my first job with the new biz. 1200 bucks for two hours worth of consulting work. Not bad

There are many opportunities for HI's outside of standard home inspections!!

Kevin

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by krichardson

I bought the T-400 for my new business, which is coming along nicely. I just landed and completed my first job with the new biz. 1200 bucks for two hours worth of consulting work. Not bad

There are many opportunities for HI's outside of standard home inspections!!

Kevin

What was the nature of the work?

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

What was the nature of the work?

I'll send you a PM.

Kevin

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by krichardson

Charley,

The new camera is awesome, and yes, it is saving me a lot of time. I mainly use the "simultaneous" option where you can take an IR image and a digital image at the same time. The camera labels these images different, but they are tied together in the software (FLIR). So, it saves alot of time not having to use a seperate camera and transfer images from two different SD cards.

Voice recordings, written notes, and scetches can all be done from the camera in the field. Each will stay attached with the image when tranfering to the software.

The T-400 is awesome, but it is expensive!! Many HI's will find that the lower end cameras work just fine with standard home inspections, but if you plan on doing other things like commercial building work or any type of PdM, then you will need a higher end camera.

I bought the T-400 for my new business, which is coming along nicely. I just landed and completed my first job with the new biz. 1200 bucks for two hours worth of consulting work. Not bad

There are many opportunities for HI's outside of standard home inspections!!

Kevin

Yes I am planning on updating the camera before my level 11 class with my industrial back ground and contacts from past life I have a company wanting me to travel to TX, Ala,Wyo, S. Dakota, N. Dakota and Ga to do IR work I need to be two people Have not decided yet what is going to take place It will depend on the $$$$$
</IMG>

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by cbottger

Yes I am planning on updating the camera before my level 11 class with my industrial back ground and contacts from past life I have a company wanting me to travel to TX, Ala,Wyo, S. Dakota, N. Dakota and Ga to do IR work I need to be two people Have not decided yet what is going to take place It will depend on the $$$$$
</IMG>

Good for you!! I wish you success

Kevin

[John McKenna]

Kevin,

My comments are true for that which pertains to a home inspection. Thanks
for the verification. Home inspectors are my main concern.

If you want to do things outside the box of a home inspection, that is wonderful.
But like Mr Kelly stated, if it is not ASNT cert., then you might as well write
your own standard.

I would like to see your reports done with the ASTM standards you quoted
... just for the sake of seeing the ASTM approved methods you use. I
assume you do indeed produce this kind of report since you quoted these
standards.... unless you were just talking hypothetically just to prove a point,
and really never use them.

For future reference... I usually confine my comments to the use of thermal
imaging for home inspectors, since that is the main group on this forum that
are constantly being sold on ideas that do not pertain to their needs, as they
begin looking for solid IR information.

Vendors have been selling home inspectors a lot of technical jargon, at grossly
over priced rates, for too long. I have had numerous inspectors tell me
that my advice has saved them thousands of dollars while they were in the
process of trying to cut through the fog of all the IR mystical hype.

Keep up the good work. I recently heard compliments about your thermal
imaging network from a third party who has studied these issues for a long
time. Your work has not gone unnoticed.

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Kevin,

My comments are true for that which pertains to a home inspection. Thanks
for the verification. Home inspectors are my main concern.

If you want to do things outside the box of a home inspection, that is wonderful.
But like Mr Kelly stated, if it is not ASNT cert., then you might as well write
your own standard.

I would like to see your reports done with the ASTM standards you quoted
... just for the sake of seeing the ASTM approved methods you use. I
assume you do indeed produce this kind of report since you quoted these
standards.... unless you were just talking hypothetically just to prove a point,
and really never use them.

For future reference... I usually confine my comments to the use of thermal
imaging for home inspectors, since that is the main group on this forum that
are constantly being sold on ideas that do not pertain to their needs, as they
begin looking for solid IR information.

Vendors have been selling home inspectors a lot of technical jargon, at grossly
over priced rates, for too long. I have had numerous inspectors tell me
that my advice has saved them thousands of dollars while they were in the
process of trying to cut through the fog of all the IR mystical hype.

Keep up the good work. I recently heard compliments about your thermal
imaging network from a third party who has studied these issues for a long
time. Your work has not gone unnoticed.

I was not talking "hypothetically" to prove my point. Just merely sharing that thier are IR standards that Home Inspectors can use for HI work.
I have completed many, many residential energy audits (ITI Energy Surveys), and I have used ASTM C 1060 – 90 as a guide. There are very specific directions in the document.

As an instructor teaching IR technology to Home Inspectors, I would "assume" you are familiar with this document. It directly relates to "Building Science" and what we do as home inspectors. Just to be clear, the scope of the standard is basically a guide to the proper use of infrared imaging systems for conducting qualitative thermal inspections of building walls, ceilings, roofs, and floors, framed in wood or metal, that may contain insulation in the spaces between framing members. It talks about procedures for the detection of cavities where insulation may be inadequate or missing.

Whether an HI is using the camera during a normal home inspection or offering an additional service, isn't this one of the applications we are looking for?

Kevin

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by krichardson

I was not talking "hypothetically" to prove my point. Just merely sharing that thier are IR standards that Home Inspectors can use for HI work.
I have completed many, many residential energy audits (ITI Energy Surveys), and I have used ASTM C 1060 – 90 as a guide. There are very specific directions in the document.

As an instructor teaching IR technology to Home Inspectors, I would "assume" you are familiar with this document. It directly relates to "Building Science" and what we do as home inspectors.

Kevin

Please provide a copy of a report where the offical standards of ASTM C
1060 - 90 have been followed and documented, as ASTM requires.

As I said before, IR vendors and some inspectors quote all this stuff, but home
inspectors don't really use it. If you don't use it, document it, and obey the standards
as the ASTM states... then your just using what you like and leaving out what you want.

As Mr Kelly said, "you might as well print your own".

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Please provide a copy of a report where the offical standards of ASTM C
1060 - 90 have been followed and documented, as ASTM requires.

As I said before, IR vendors and some inspectors quote all this stuff, but home
inspectors don't really use it. If you don't use it, document it, and obey the standards
as the ASTM states... then your just using what you like and leaving out what you want.

As Mr Kelly said, "you might as well print your own".

It's becoming very apparant that you do not know what you're talking about. I would strongly suggest that you purchase a copy and READ it.

As far as my reports, I DO NOT need to prove anything to you! I'm making a point that you fail to realize. But, that's OK!!

It's a "GUIDE", so I reference it in my pre-inspection ageements for all my IR work. In addition, I have a beginning paragraph for my inspection reports that states I use it as a "GUIDE" to conduct my inspections.

What part of that do you not understand?

Kevin