Next INFRARED CERTIFIED CLASS

[Nick Gromicko]

LEVEL I - qualified to perform specific calibrations, specific examinations and specific evaluations (with specific written instructions).

LEVEL II - qualified to set-up and calibrate equipment and to interpret and evaluate results with respect to codes, standards, and specifications. Must be able to prepare written instructions, qualified to provide on-the-job training and guidance of trainees and report examination results.

LEVEL III - must be capable and responsible for establishing techniques, interpreting codes, and designating the test method and technique to be used, and capable of training and examining NDT Level I and II personnel for certification. Must have a practical background in the technology and be familiar with other commonly used methods of NDT.
Certification / re-certification requirements and interruption intervals. Typically, all three (3) levels are recertified at five (5) year intervals; however, interruption intervals of inactivity for suspension of certification should be addressed.

There ya go. Like many on this thread have explained, the "Level" scam designed to snooker money away from numeric rank suckers, has almost nothing to do with home inspections. Again, most of what you'll need to correctly interpret the data from your IR camera comes not from what you're pointing, but rather what you're pointing at. That's why the Infrared Certified professional designation requires the completion of inspection courses.

[James H. Bushart]

Brandon asked a question in regard to a certain vendor and I responded to it. The threads from which I based my response have been posted. There is nothing in my response to Brandon or subsequent posts by me that I feel that I need to modify or spin. They say what they say.

In general, "certification" is a silly thing regarding a tool such as this, IMO. Now, for those who want to call themselves "thermographers" and have a need to impress other "thermographers", perhaps this is a necessary path. But for a home inspector or energy auditor to use to find where they might need to apply a moisture meter, where there may be gaps in wall insulation, or identify a spot of air infiltration while doing a blower door test....the thermal imager is a handy tool but certainly nothing to build an entire inspection on.

Obviously, those who make the tool or sell the classes will feel differently about that...but this is to be expected because this is what they sell. What we sell is an accurate, thorough and unbiased inspection or audit report and this is simply another tool to use (or not) in compiling the data for it. Nothing more.

I don't know about all of you, but I think most of us can agree that we can do an inspection without our IR cameras much more easily than we can without a flashlight. How many of you are "certified" in flashlight use....even though many have misread or otherwise inaccurately analyzed the images it has produced?

Gotta leave for "termite school" to keep my license current. Hope you all have a great day.

[James H. Bushart]

This appeared, today, in another forum that I belong to and was posted by guy who claims to be a "Certified Thermographer".

It was recently pointed out to me that InterNACHI is offering "Introduction To Infrared Thermography Online Video Course". I have been told that this course qualifies the InterNACHI Home Inspectors to advertise that they are "Certified" Thermographers.

We have had no rain in Central Florida for 21 days but yet a quick Thermal Assessment by this InterNACHI Certified Thermographer found a home to be free of any water intrusion.

The stain on the ceiling and wall along with the homeowners report confirmed, for me, that the leak was active the last time it rained and that there have been no repairs to the roof to correct the leak.

In this case the inspector used his camera to impress the client. Bells and Whistles. He was hired to find the leak so that it could be repaired before the next rain. The images taken by the InterNACHI inspector that I reviewed were taken in the middle of the day. The home is block construction on the first floor and wood frame on the second. Far too many issues with the thermal inspection to even begin to discuss. Needless to say once again a camera owner was paid to provide a service that he was not qualified to provide and clearly his online training was not sufficient.

I find it amazing that there are inspectors out there that will consider themselves Certified Thermographers after only a few hours of training.

The rest of the thread is a general urinating olympiad between "Level I" certified thermographers who are arguing that their level of skill is essential, "Level II" certified thermographers who are arguing that all that Level I thermographers are qualified to do is is to ask intelligent questions....and so on.

In other words, the marketing of cameras and schools is creating the same food chain that we have all seen within our own industry (ASHI members are good, others are bad....Licensing is good, unlicensed inspectors are a menace to society.....Construction contractors make better inspectors, construction contractors are the one's who screwed up the mess I am reporting on.....etc). The question, I believe, is centered on whether or not I want to learn how to use an instrument in order to provide accurate reports....or do I want a "certification" that will impress my peers.

Not targeting this toward any particular person...really...but if it is possible for a guy to buy a camera and, within a very short period of time, be qualified to "certify" others; how difficult is it REALLY for someone of just average intelligence to avoid the obvious mistakes made in the case cited in the other forum that I copied, above?

I own an IR camera that I use along with a myriad of other tools to perform an inspection or energy audit. I am not a Moisture Meterologist, a Blower Doorographer or a Thermographer. I am a full time professional inspector who effectively uses the appropriate tool(s) to provide accurate, complete and umbiased reports to those who pay for his services.

Nothing more and nothing less.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jbushart

This appeared, today, in another forum that I belong to and was posted by guy who claims to be a "Certified Thermographer".

It was recently pointed out to me that InterNACHI is offering "Introduction To Infrared Thermography Online Video Course". I have been told that this course qualifies the InterNACHI Home Inspectors to advertise that they are "Certified" Thermographers.

This person is incorrect (whoever they are).
See Here for full instructions to become INFRARED CERTIFIED.

Regarding the debate on what kind of training and type of IR camera is needed for doing building inspections of different kinds, I would recommend the following... Do not buy the i5 infrared camera (non RESNET approved because of low resolution) and do not skip the IR training. Some people are foolish enough to do this (I am not mentioning any names).

What kind of IR camera did you buy and what kind of training did you take? If you prefer, you don't have to say it in public.

[Erol Kartal]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

When I took my first certification course from FLIR-ITC several years ago, the instructor said the "little Level II and Level III thermographers have a hard time passing his building science course".

I also took the FLIR Building Sciences Course with Larry Kage. Is it because Level 2 and 3 thermographers work primarily in manufacturing environments on predictive maintenance?

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by Erol Kartal

I also took the FLIR Building Sciences Course with Larry Kage. Is it because Level 2 and 3 thermographers work primarily in manufacturing environments on predictive maintenance?

I think your on to something...

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by Erol Kartal

I also took the FLIR Building Sciences Course with Larry Kage. Is it because Level 2 and 3 thermographers work primarily in manufacturing environments on predictive maintenance?

This isn't entirely true, many level II thermographers are inspecting commercial buildings, flat roofs, and electrical scans. All these fall under predictive maintenance and pay upwards of $1000.00/day.

Level III is primarily a teaching certification.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by prussell

This isn't entirely true, many level II thermographers are inspecting commercial buildings, flat roofs, and electrical scans. All these fall under predictive maintenance and pay upwards of $1000.00/day.

Level III is primarily a teaching certification.

If you do a head count, most Level II and Level III people do not come
out of the construction industry. A few years ago, there were extremely
few. We are seeing more in recent times, as the use of the IR camera
becomes more common in the building industry. Several years ago,
the manufacturers didn't even make an IR camera expressly for building
inspections like they do now. This is what both FLUKE, FLIR and ITC have
told me.

[Brandon Clark]

This thread is awesome.. I wish we could get some form of interNachi cage fighting game. Settle all these disputes in the ring with the weapon of your choice from items such as a moisture meter, an infrared camera, a flashlight, and even a blower door. Certifications could only be used for a bit of leverage and power-ups should you actually posses them.

A flashlight would be a good choice if your still using the mag lite but the impact resistance FLUKE used as a sledge hammer to drive the pins of a moisture meter into someones forehead would really do some damage.

[John E. Mullarkey]

Well said James. I recently attended one day of the IR INFO in Orlando, met alot of very intelligent people and also learned a good bit as well. While there I was able to scan the manual for level 1 IR certification. I know I will be hammered for this BUT the similaraties between that and John's course are too close to explain. Granted there is alot more technical data in the level 1 but try this.

In the USN I worked on radar systems. I understand wave propagation, parasitic oscillations and can tell you what a magnatron does. I once beat a speeding ticket by challenging the Troopers qualifications in the use of a radar speed gun. HOWEVER the radar guys who actually used the repeaters/screens, tracked bogies, maintained the CIC board usually do not know a magnatron from a bridge diode and could care less. As an ET I understood how the systems work. The radar guy understood how to use the system.

My point is this, does the radar guy, Thermographer, need to know the electronics of the system or is it more important for him to know how rain, weather and the sun affects his screen ala emissivity, reflectivity etc. Did I as a tech type need to know those effects or did I need to keep the system accurate according to USN standards aka calibration.

We have two people both working on the ships' radar system but they are two completely different breeds of cat with two completely different training backgrounds. I hope this makes sense to you guys and beg the indulgences of Mr Anderson, Sneffrin, Stockton and all the other "gods" of IR. Does this mean I will offer aerial IR scans from my friends airplane, or offer a IR analysis of a nuclear plant...Absolutely not! Will I offer an exceptional HI with IR and charge more for it, yes, a commercial IR scan of a warehouse with my electrician, yes. I will offer to my customers any service that I am capable of and confident in providing. Have I taken level 1, no. Have i taken Johns' course, yes as well as studying every white paper from Sneffrin, Stockton and others including ASTM standards.

This debate is excellent and I hope it continues and I also hope that this anology will put a little bit of a different light on it. The IR "gods" are correct in saying you need all the training you can get for what you are doing. John and Nick are correct in saying you need training to do what you want to do. Just buying an IR camera and going out there is a fools errand.

[Brian E. Kelly]

In the NDT (Non Destructive Testing) World, a true ASNT NDT Level Certification carries a certain amount of weight, and is respected as having Value by Professional Inspectors.

It is also well known that you can make your own Cert following the ASNT guidelines (ASNT Recommended Practice No. SNT-TC-1A) as an Employer. These Certs have always been skeptically viewed by Professional NDT Inspectors as the standards used are a moving target.

Kinda like the CMI of Thermographers would be how I see it.