No Visual Evidence

[David A. Andersen]

State of Missouri Certified Energy Auditor

Being from the "Show Me" state, I'd think Jim would want to show more than "latent" air movement through the house that the blower door provides!?

I believe that Thermal Audits should not be performed without a blower door (of sorts), and that no blower door test is complete without IR scans.

I at least use a Duct Blaster with a window adapter to break the neutral pressure plain of the building (if I can't make other mechanical equipment do the job). Turning on a few fart fans doesn't always do it. How will you know this without a Manometer? No one talks about the manometer.

Just knowing how much leakage your building has is not enough information for the client.
How do these guys expect to pass this off and then stand on a Soap Box ranting that TI is just a big expensive toy?

It's simply an inferiority complex I guess.
If you can't afford to do the full job, do something else for a living is my opinion.

[David A. Andersen]

Originally Posted by belliott

Still no answer .
Interesting .

Bob, I don't find it at all "interesting".

"Insufficient information" guessing is not what any of us should be doing around here.

Just how can I tell you if it will work or not?!

I have posted scans on several occasions here of comparisons between cameras I have owned. A fuzzy blue spot is not going to give you enough information to do a qualitative analysis of an anomaly (never mind a qualitative one). You need more than one pixel to take a temperature measurement. Low end cameras can't work on small targets at extended distance (like when you can't get close to sub-station equipment).

Camera resolution is not the sole factor to consider.
It "just happens" that a higher resolution camera has a greater sensitivity built in (this is no longer true with the flood of low quality cameras showing up out there). I have seen several Hi-Rez Lo-Sen cameras that just don't cut it as well.

Talk to the Big Guys (you know, the Level III guys that are not qualified to do home inspections). They have many cameras to choose from and will tell you that one camera does not cover all that they do.

I have yet to see a Home Depot camera.
I can only guess that 125 x 125 will be accompanied with other low end parts.

If you guys can't understand the visual aids I have provided, I fail to see the need to talk about the laws of thermodynamics and IR Theory.

No one says you must have a $87k camera, just make sure you understand the limits of the Home Depot version before you set out selling breast scans to the medical field or on an equine subject that produces hundreds of thousands of dollars standing at stud (per incident)!

BTW: Charlie and I both upgraded our cameras this summer. Not for "bigger is better" toys, but because there are things that make a long day at the industrial - commercial plants easier on the ageing body and improve efficiency of reporting. Ever try to sort out 100 digital and 200 thermal scans and associate them with the equipment and building location so someone can go back and fix it? Mix up one scan and see where it leads you! All those panels start to look very similar once you get back to the office.

[Bob Elliott]

OK ,Just asking since I certainly have no need to buy a first time new user camera that has commercial use.
Never recall my father suggesting I would not be happy with my first car unless it was a Lamborghini either though.

[Chuck Evans]

Originally Posted by jbushart

The power company official turned around and winked at me, smiled and...

Hope you at least got a dinner out of it.

[David A. Andersen]

Originally Posted by belliott

OK ,Just asking since I certainly have no need to buy a first time new user camera that has commercial use.
Never recall my father suggesting I would not be happy with my first car unless it was a Lamborghini either though.

Hope you didn't need to drive 240 Mph to "keep up" with traffic either!...

Just Stupid!

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by dandersen

How much did you pay for your blower door James?

I'm still waiting for mine to show me where the leaks are...

My blower door is run by a computer, but still nothing!...

...and I though I was just doing something wrong.

Now that they are cheap enough to throw into a tool box next to the moisture meter, I bought an i5.

Still knowing that not all areas that leak at -50 pa will leak at normal pressure....my camera is not definitive in pinpointing the actual source of air loss (which will differ between heating and cooling seasons, anyway). For the next few months where the indoor and outdoor air temps vary by 15 degrees or more, it does help me to determine what might be lacking in the walls and in parts of the ceiling that are not attic accessible. Not a total waste...but far, far from essential, IMO.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by dandersen

how will you know this without a manometer? No one talks about the manometer.

Boy howdie.

JJ

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by belliott

Never recall my father suggesting I would not be happy with my first car unless it was a Lamborghini either though.

What if he said: "Here ya go son, your very own horse and buggy". I think your analogy is a tad off.

JJ

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by dandersen

I believe that Thermal Audits should not be performed without a blower door (of sorts), and that no blower door test is complete without IR scans.

And that is just the beginning.

JJ

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by belliott

Would a 125x125 have totally missed it?
I understand Bosh is coming out with a $1,000 unit at 125x50 to be sold at Home Depot very soon so we all will have them shortly but thanks for being the pioneers.
How will clients know the $15,000 model makes a difference in a sea of competitors?

You guys are the road warriors with the suitcase cell phones in the eighties.

Where did you get this information Bob?

We are a Bosch distributor. They know that we are big in thermal imaging and I have heard 0 about this. Bosch has had stationary IR and NIR for quite some time now.

For the most part these companies stay away from test and measurement because they just do not have the back ground. Milwaukee dabbed around in it last year and got crushed and basically laughed out of the market. All these companies have to private label this kind of stuff (import it). The only reason I could see this being reality is because Bosch has a long history of M & A and could have bought a company, but I would know about that.

JJ

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Now that they are cheap enough to throw into a tool box next to the moisture meter, I bought an i5.

Still knowing that not all areas that leak at -50 pa will leak at normal pressure....my camera is not definitive in pinpointing the actual source of air loss (which will differ between heating and cooling seasons, anyway). For the next few months where the indoor and outdoor air temps vary by 15 degrees or more, it does help me to determine what might be lacking in the walls and in parts of the ceiling that are not attic accessible. Not a total waste...but far, far from essential, IMO.

James, good thing you keep that next to your moisture meter. That way you'll be able to tell missing insulation from water intrusion...... or will you??

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by prussell

James, good thing you keep that next to your moisture meter. That way you'll be able to tell missing insulation from water intrusion...... or will you??

IR cameras don't detect moisture...just the temperature changes associated with it...but you know that.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I bought an i5.

wow....

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by jbushart

IR cameras don't detect moisture...just the temperature changes associated with it...but you know that.

That was the point.....

IR camera's only detect Apparent temperature's, not always actual.

It's the operator who needs to thermally tune the camera to see if what he's looking at is actual or apparent.

PS. don't forget to look at the floors as well as the walls and ceilings.

That's where it all starts.

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

What about a thermal temperature sensor. Would this allow me the same identification in walls, ceilings, etc.
I understand that IR cameras are able to cover a broader area, extremely sensitive, broader area of functionality, etc, but its the start-up cost that is involved ( for me ) and the educational training.
If so which one ( Thermal sensor ).
Thanks...... Robert