PRO-LAB deal on IR Camera: $2,995.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Look at all the letters after your own name

Now take away you tool bag and do an inspection

______

What is in your tool bag

Car
Phone
Computer and software
Camera
IR Camera
Flashlight
Many meters
Hand Tools
Mold Sampling equipment
Ladder
Paper
Pen
First Aid Supplies
NACHI membership


rlb

[rmaday]

I'm confused?

Originally Posted by rbennett

We are starting to think that it is the knowledge of the inspector that makes for a good inspection when in fact it is the tools that we use

Huh? The knowledege of how to USE the tools and interpret the results are what make a good inspector. Tools, help, but knowledge is the key.
From what you're saying I could give my 7-year old all the latest, greatest tools and he would be the best inspector.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Words like "I have 20**** years of doing what I am doing" do not show a client that you are the best inspector. Your tool bag shows the client that you are the best inspector

What if I don't know how to operate the tools? Moisture meter, IR camera, computer? Tools in and of themselves show that you had the money (or credit) to buy them.
Who would you rather have working on your car (house, boat, person, etc) a new kid fresh out of "training" with all the latest high tech tools or someone who has been at his trade for 20 years with half the tools but 100X the knowlegde?

Originally Posted by rbennett

Our military is not the best in the world because we have the best people in it. It is the best in the world because it is the best equipped

So, why not gather up all the homeless and all the prisoners and draft them into the military. With all that great equipment, we should see no drop off in performance. And solve more than one problem.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Just got off the phone with a client that said "you have got the job" --- Reason -- I told him that I could not quote him until I saw the home and I would call him back. Went to the home -- Inside and out -- called him on cell and told him that he had some electrical issues that would take some extra inspection time. Quoted him a price that was proper but higher than a "best guess" and he said "'you have the job"

Lesson learned -- The cell phone and my car got the inspection not my knowledge. Just tools in the tool bag

Your knowledge - that you had to go see the property first - got you the job. We all have cell phones and cars. I have yet for my cell phone to book an inspection without me answering it.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Look at it this way --- You got an IR camera because it did a better job of finding issues in a home than you could do without it. The tool made you a better inspector - not your knowledge.
rlb

Again, tools are good and can help make you better, but without the knowledge of how to use the tool, the tool itself is worthless. You could put me in the space shuttle (a fine tool) but I wouldn't be able to fly two blocks, let alone to the ISS.

Your argument of tools make the inspector is seriously flawed IMO.
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[Nick Gromicko]

John Snell writes:

Thanks. No offense taken. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the differences in qualities of the various training available. Clearly anyone can learn on their own using the web and other free or low-cost resources...

"Free knowledge" certainly has a place...

I was thrilled on Friday to get an accounting report from NACHI.TV showing that our training shows have finally gotten under the $400 per minute production mark.

Yes, that's $400 per minute!

www.nachi.org/advancedcourses.htm

[James H. Bushart]

I think that observing the house before quoting an inspection fee is absurd.

You inspect in accordance with an SOP. The same steps, with usually only minor deviations, are taken in each inspection.

Those who sell the tools and the education as to how to use them will argue vehemently for the need of both. No sense in our trying to steal away any of their thunder.

Whether you find the soft wood in the attic with your IR, your moisture meter, or your eyeballs and a scratch awl....it takes a good inspector to know when and how to use these tools, where to look, and how to interpret what he finds and communicate it in a report. If all that were necessary were the tools themselves, you would find legislation requiring them.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I think that observing the house before quoting an inspection fee is absurd.

Agreed, but I don't know the details of this particular inspection, so I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt there . I know for sure the phone in and of itself was not the reason he got the job.

If it was, that phone should sell like sunscreen in Maui!

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by rmaday

I know for sure the phone in and of itself was not the reason he got the job.

According to Richard, it was his tools (in this case, his phone) that did the job. Had you used that same phone, you would have gotten the appointment, too?

Why does NACHI not have a telephone vendor selling classes on how to operate the "Home Inspector Appointment Setting Telephone Instrument" on the new $2,499 appointment setting phone instrument he is offering for sale?

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by jbushart

According to Richard, it was his tools (in this case, his phone) that did the job. Had you used that same phone, you would have gotten the appointment, too?

Why does NACHI not have a telephone vendor selling classes on how to operate the "Home Inspector Appointment Setting Telephone Instrument" on the new $2,499 appointment setting phone instrument he is offering for sale?

How 'bout a Daily Door Prize!
Nick?

[Richard L. Bennett]

Many points to address here

First the home -- I always try to get as much information about an inspection before I accept and quote. A standard home is one thing. This one was not standard and my client could not supply enough information for me to know what I was getting into. Yes, I could have walked to the next town and then walked to my client and told him what services I would supply and then walked home. Letting the client know that you can provide a high level of service is the key. The inspection took extra time because of the condition of the 75 year old home. No way of knowing based on the information that the client could supply with out a visit to the site

Tools and Knowledge

We all use tools. The better they are the better we are at our profession. Do you want a Doctor to gain his experience on you body or would you like to have some lower level medical tec to run some SMART current state of art equipment and give you a read out as to your health? Doctors make mistakes. It takes training to take blood pressure the old way. With a consumer grade SMART tool you can do it your self with very little training and it will even tell you if is too high

The best military

I will put our 19 year old part time reserve with a smart killing tool that can see in the dark against a skilled sharp shooter any day of the week to protect my family. Don't put down some of our people that are home less etc. Many are vets that we used to protect our country. Many of the men and women in the service today are there for the $$ and education. They are not professional killers and protectors of our way of life. They are young people just trying to have a better life. They have giving us a blank check to use them as we see fit payable with their life for money and a good education. The USN education that I recieved was first class. Trust me I was not skilled and educated when I started to run a SMART tool of war. God is on the side of the army with the best equipment (THE BIG GUNS WIN)

IR

We all keep hearing -- GET TRAINED -- level 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 etc. and get trained from the best (in who's eyes) WHY - because the equipment is not smart enough to know if it is seeing a problem or what is normal. So make the tool smarter. Maybe even smart and low in cost for the home owner to use himself.

Yes, I am all for replacing people with machines when the machine does a better job. We keep training with the idea that better trained better job. We start to think that the value of education is worth BIG $$ and boy do we pay and pay. (Look at you local school's budget)

Take the same time and money and put the smarts into the product

And don't get upset when the new inspector does the job better than you for less money because he or she invested in tools - not himself

Did you buy an IR camera or are you thinking about it?

This thread says "PRO-LAB deal on IR Camera: $2995" That is about 10 inspections. By having it will it bring you a quick 10 additional inspections??

I am waiting for the next model for just a very short time and it better be a better product that I can use the day I get it.


rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

Don't look now but phones are selling like sun-screen

They probably save more fuel world wide than any invention that man has ever made

rlb

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Many points to address here

First the home --

Like I said I didn't know the situation of why you felt you had to go see the house first. That's really immaterial to my point.

Your phone, all by itself did not get you that job.
Yes, without that phone you would not have had a way to talk to the client.
Just having the phone, however, was not why you got the job. Your KNOWLEDGE in how to use the phone helped a bit, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Tools and Knowledge

We all use tools. The better they are the better we are at our profession.

No.
The better WE are at USING them (KNOWLEDGE), the better we are at our profession.
With your argument, anyone can be a top notch inspector simply by having the best tools. The key is the KNOWLEDGE it takes to USE the tool and the KNOWLEDGE required to interpret results.
Your moisture meter cannot get from the truck to the crawl space on it's own. It also has no KNOWLEDGE of where it should be placed or how to turn itself on. The number it generates is completely arbitrary unles you have the KNOWLEDGE to undersdtand what that number means and how to convey that to your client.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Do you want a Doctor to gain his experience on you body or would you like to have some lower level medical tec to run some SMART current state of art equipment and give you a read out as to your health?

Which is it - Doctor "gaining experience" (ie doing something) on my body or a lower level tech "giving me a read out" (ie running tests).

Either way your argument doesn't hold water. The actual performance of the tests (ie. BP, EKG, CAT scan, MRI) is not the same as interpreting the results (KNOWLEDGE)

Originally Posted by rbennett

Doctors make mistakes.

As does everyone.

Originally Posted by rbennett

It takes training to take blood pressure the old way. With a consumer grade SMART tool you can do it your self with very little training and it will even tell you if is too high

For BP, sure. Also moitoring blood sugar levels has gotten much easier too.
But if someone had to have major surgurey (brain surgurey, heart transplant, etc) who would you rather have - the doctor performing his first surgeurey with "the latest equipment" or a doctor who has done 500 surgureies - using the same equipment.

Originally Posted by rbennett

The best military

I will put our 19 year old part time reserve with a smart killing tool that can see in the dark against a skilled sharp shooter any day of the week to protect my family.

Do you think out troops - whom I have great respect for BTW - are enlisted suited up and flown to IRAQ on day 1 with "smart killing tools". Of course not they require training (KNOWLEDGE) of how to USE the tools they are given.
You continue to confuse the tool itself with ones ability to properly USE the tool. With your argument we should be able to take anyone, drop them in a hot zone with a "smart killing tool" and expect them to be successful.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Don't put down some of our people that are home less etc.
Many are vets that we used to protect our country.

I have not put down anyone. If you re-read my previous post I said that using the homeless would solve more than one problem - they wouldn't be homeless anymore.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Many of the men and women in the service today are there for the $$ and education. They are not professional killers and protectors of our way of life. They are young people just trying to have a better life. They have giving us a blank check to use them as we see fit payable with their life for money and a good education.

I understand there are many reasons people would join the military and I am grateful to all that they do serve.

Originally Posted by rbennett

The USN education that I recieved was first class. Trust me I was not skilled and educated when I started to run a SMART tool of war.

Your education? I though your whole premis was that knowledge does not matter? So, the tool itself "SMART tool of war" was not enough? You needed to learn how to use it? (KNOWLEDGE)

Originally Posted by rbennett

God is on the side of the army with the best equipment (THE BIG GUNS WIN)

This is a discussion for a different thread.

Originally Posted by rbennett

IR

We all keep hearing -- GET TRAINED -- level 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 etc. and get trained from the best (in who's eyes) WHY - because the equipment is not smart enough to know if it is seeing a problem or what is normal. So make the tool smarter. Maybe even smart and low in cost for the home owner to use himself.

And many tools have been made smarter - computers, phones, DVD players. It still takes some degree of KNOWLEDGE (training) to use them.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Yes, I am all for replacing people with machines when the machine does a better job. We keep training with the idea that better trained better job.

Yes, the more you know about what you're doing, the better you can do it. As far as replacing people w/ machines .

Originally Posted by rbennett

We start to think that the value of education is worth BIG $$ and boy do we pay and pay. (Look at you local school's budget)

So what is the value of education? If there was no education whatsoever, how would people have the KNOWLDGE to build the SMART tools, you are so anxious to have?

Originally Posted by rbennett

Take the same time and money and put the smarts into the product

Who is "putting the smarts into the product"? Is it your un-educated, unskilled person? Or perhaps it is someone who has the KNOWLEDGE to identify the need for a SMART tool and the KNOWLEDGE of how to produce and sell it.

Originally Posted by rbennett

And don't get upset when the new inspector does the job better than you for less money because he or she invested in tools - not himself

That's too funny. So in an unlicensed state (assuming no formal training) someone who has no background in the trades at all and goes out and buys all the best tools (even if they don't know how to use them) will do a better inspection that a 20yr vet with a handfull of "basic" tools.
That's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by rbennett

Did you buy an IR camera or are you thinking about it?

No and yes

Originally Posted by rbennett

This thread says "PRO-LAB deal on IR Camera: $2995" That is about 10 inspections. By having it will it bring you a quick 10 additional inspections??

Probably not, but by doing better inspections - once I have the KNOWLEDGE to use it and interpret - it may bring me 100 inspections.

Originally Posted by rbennett

I am waiting for the next model for just a very short time and it better be a better product that I can use the day I get it.

rlb

You can use anything the day you get it. Whether you'll use it properly is another story.
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[rmaday]

Lets continue this HERE

[Peter W. Bennett]

I conduced an IR inspection on a home where the buyer brought an engineer. He said his company developed a thermal imaging camera that mounts inside a fireman's helmet a couple of years ago. $25k was the cost. When he heard what the price of my Flir SD cost, he said it would be less than three years for his camera to be around $7k.
Remember the $1,200 digitals which are now about $150 ?
Time will tell

[Richard L. Bennett]

Richard

The doctor has do his first by himself some time

Glad that most of the time it is a team of doctors

Why did you want to start another thread??

rlb

[William J. Decker]

Jim;

Don't mean to pick on you, and I hope you will take it that way, but your post brings up just the kind of discussion I want to have about this topic. Please do not take my comments personally. I am just addressing the points you have brought up in your post. They are good ones and must be discussed.

That said:

Originally Posted by jbushart

I know I am really getting close to the edge, here, and will likely piss off Nick and every vendor on down from him....but I have to ask.

Nick has built a great association, one that is the best in the industry. iNACHI inspectors are kicking butt, as well as exceeding the other associations in member success (in their business), in benefits (to help their business) and education (to provide people who hire iNACHI inspectors with the best equipped and educated inspectors around). This has been hard and ity has cost money.

As part of Nick's efforts, he has had to work with "vendors". This is not a dirty word. People work for a living and gain their pay through the value they bring. Just like inspectors, there are "good" vendors and "bad" vendors.

Dominic is a "good" vendor, just as an example (and I do not mean to slight all the other "good" vendors, understand). He sells a product and helps. He provides value for the money that he is paid. People pay him and his work is very much worth the effort.

Other vendors on this board (and I will not name any names) that are "bad". They do not provide value worth their pay. And, as we have seen, this is found out and exposed, right here. Then, this vendor goes away.

We are all familiar with Professor Henry Hill, the visitor to River City who was a teacher in music and seller of band uniforms....and we are familiar with to what extent he went to convince the town they needed to have a marching band.

Professor Hill, once he had taken the time to get involved in the lives of the River City residents (as many iNACHI vendors have), found out that he DID provide value. His past "sins" were forgiven and he went on to provide even more value (and get the hottest chick ).

We have also experienced...right here on our own board....how, within months of purchasing their own...a few of our members jumped on the teaching bandwagon to develop training programs --- and, subsequently, a long series of arguments favoring the absolute triumph IR technology has over the industry.

Good point. One of the great things about this board is that the members get to learn from the experiences, and mistakes, of others. Once exposed to the bright light of truth, the cockroaches scurry away. The good guys stick around. And they help.

I know, Jim, that you are not talking about me. I have had my camera and have been using it for inspections for years. I had previous experience with thermography from way back in 1980. And medical thermography is way more complex, quanitiative (as opposed to qualitative) and has more liability than just scanning houses. No slam, just fact.

No doubt, if I spent $5K and up for a device like that, I would also be waving it over my head and making claims as to how my inspection reports will better describe certain issues, etc....It's human nature.

This is, indeed, human nature. People do a job, and do it well. Then, someone else comes along and does a better job, and the good, experienced and professional people who were previously doing a good job get all upset because the "new guy" does it better. This is called envy. Blame the other person for taking your business away from you.

But one the original guy gets a camera, he is on board.

But when the camera reaches the same price as my Delmhorst moisture meter and becomes just another valuable tool to help me conduct an inspection in accordance with my SOP...what value will there be to the $2K class or the $5k camera? The SOP is the SOP, and a report is a report.

Around here, there are many inspectors whou have cameras. There are only a few who have the training.

And, slowly, but surely, the untrained ones are getting themselves in trouble.

What you need is:

1) Be a good, professional inspector.
2) Once you have done # 1, get a camera. Then play with it and learn all you can on your own.
3) Get professional training. The prices are coming down all the time (just like with the cameras ).
4) Play with it some more.
5) Start marketing.
6) Last, but not least, get ready to be criticized and slammed by those who are still on step # 1.

Hope this helps;

[James H. Bushart]

I don't see where I "slammed" anyone, Will.

Personally, as long as users of the IR cameras are adding additional inspection fees for what they tout as an additional service, I have no problem with it.

But some are not. Instead, they are making the stupid claim that a home inspection is "incomplete" without the use of this camera...and trying to create a brand new "minimum basic requirement" because they have one and their competitor does not. I am not referring to you, here.

The SOP requires what is to be inspected, how it is to be inspected, and how to be reported. The tools used to accomplish this are at the discretion of the inspector. The client pays for my expertise in analyzing and reporting my findings, whether they were discovered with my flashlight, my moisture meter, my electrical tester or my IR camera.