Purchasing Thermal imagers can hurt you

[Jonathan T. Hittle]

I was once told by an instructor not to buy too many gadgets because if you are sued, it makes you look like an expert. (MORE LIABILITY) I thought you are to be an expert in your field. That is why education is the key. I am going slowly into the thermal imaging. The gadget may make me look like an expert but I need the knowledge to back it up.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jpope

There are those who are "afraid" of technology. This email is a prime example. . .

I tend to agree with this. I know many older, more experienced, inspectors around here who slam TI saying that it is not part of a real home inspection or that it is just a toy and other such things. I have ansl heard them slamming me because I do it and teach it.

But, you know what? They appear to be losing market share. In these tough times (home sale contracts down 27% from last year) and only 38% of our state's inspectors renewing their licenses, every advantage helps.

Sure, the camera is all flashy and impressive, but it also gives me more information. It has also save my butt a few times (non-visual water leaks that the camera found) and in covering my butt, I am also covering the client's butt. And is that not what our job is all about, protecting our client's interests?

The times, they are a changing.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by jhittle

I was once told by an instructor not to buy too many gadgets because if you are sued, it makes you look like an expert. (MORE LIABILITY) I thought you are to be an expert in your field. That is why education is the key. I am going slowly into the thermal imaging. The gadget may make me look like an expert but I need the knowledge to back it up.

Education is quite important.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Kevin Luce

I hope that others will question what you wrote because I think that many of your comments are wrong.

Please expand on your comment.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by Kevin Luce

I hope that others will question what you wrote because I think that many of your comments are wrong.

Not sure how any of my comments are wrong, they are mainly from some of my customers experiences with infrared. Which comments are you referring to and why they would be wrong.

JJ

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by jpope

There are those who are "afraid" of technology. This email is a prime example. . .

Jeff,

Your tag line in your signature is simply awesome!! BTW I agree with your above statement.

[Chris Mayes]

First off, you can't start a marketing campaing with a NEGATIVE slogan. Especially an email campaign. What was this guy thinking??? "Blah Blah can hurt you Blah Blah". Even it if said "1000 pretty butterflies can kill you", it's still negative. Why would you run a negative email campaign anyway??? Email campaigns aren't easy. Don't waste time with negative banter?

Run a positive campaign. Then go all out after you've "sparked" your market audience and know where to go.


Christopher Mayes, President / CEO
AC Tool Supply, Inc.
chris@aikencolon.com

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Jeff,

Your tag line in your signature is simply awesome!! BTW I agree with your above statement.

Thanks Mario

[Kevin Luce]

Originally Posted by jhittle

I was once told by an instructor not to buy too many gadgets because if you are sued, it makes you look like an expert. (MORE LIABILITY) I thought you are to be an expert in your field. That is why education is the key. I am going slowly into the thermal imaging. The gadget may make me look like an expert but I need the knowledge to back it up.

I think it's how you advertize the use of this technology that will play a factor if you are acting like an expert of not. For now, I inform people verbally and through the contract that this service (which is part of the home inspection) is a basic scan of the house.

I would think that when you charge extra for the service, that might put you in a different boat since they are hiring you for that specific service. Including the service as part of the home inspection, you are still a home inspector, but using, yet another, tool to help discover problems. If they hire you (extra $) to do a specific job (infrared scanning), than I would think there is a chance that you are providing a service that is more than what a home inspector does (depending on what your state defines as a home inspector).

[David A. Andersen]

I think it's how you advertize the use of this technology that will play a factor if you are acting like an expert of not.

Lookup "expert".

It's anyone who has more than the average expertise in a particular area.

I don't think anyone out there knows how to turn on a thermal imaging camera, so that in of itself makes you an expert.

If you simply bring a thermal camera to an inspection or mention the fact that it is used you are pumping up the client's expectations. This in of itself raises your liability.

You simply have to do it right.
Trying to downplay your ability to evaluate thermal imaging scans will not protect you.

My level II instructor testified for the defense, and ended up testifying against a home inspector with a thermal imaging camera. Because the home inspector could not provide information such as the temperature and wavelength that a thermal scan was taken his credibility was destroyed in the case.

Not that you necessarily need to document these things to do a home inspection scan, but the diagnostics performed by the home inspector and inconsistencies in his testimony were way off base to start with and a lawyer simply made a total fool out of him on the stand through his expert level III witness.

If you think that you can write away responsibilities and liabilities in a one-page contract or through disclaimers in your inspection report you had better tread lightly.

For the point and click home inspection thermal imaging owners, you may think that you can do a qualitative inspection on a home and not be required to know all that other thermal imaging stuff. Well, the fact of the matter is, if you leave a temperature measurement on the scan (which I see all the time), you had better be able to explain that temperature measurement. It doesn't necessarily need to be a corrected temperature, but you better be able to testify everything there is to know about that measurement that you left behind. You must be able to tell the court how the un-corrected temperature reading effects the scan and that it is not correct and just how much it is not correct.

So anyone out there taking training that does not cover the full extent of basic thermal imaging; including error factor correction, temperature reflect, emissivity determination, you had better pay very close attention to how you utilize this technology.

It probably takes you longer to learn what you are not doing , then to learn how to do it right.

[Kevin Luce]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Lookup "expert".

It's anyone who has more than the average expertise in a particular area.

I don't think anyone out there knows how to turn on a thermal imaging camera, so that in of itself makes you an expert.

If you simply bring a thermal camera to an inspection or mention the fact that it is used you are pumping up the client's expectations. This in of itself raises your liability.

You simply have to do it right.
Trying to downplay your ability to evaluate thermal imaging scans will not protect you.

My level II instructor testified for the defense, and ended up testifying against a home inspector with a thermal imaging camera. Because the home inspector could not provide information such as the temperature and wavelength that a thermal scan was taken his credibility was destroyed in the case.

Not that you necessarily need to document these things to do a home inspection scan, but the diagnostics performed by the home inspector and inconsistencies in his testimony were way off base to start with and a lawyer simply made a total fool out of him on the stand through his expert level III witness.

If you think that you can write away responsibilities and liabilities in a one-page contract or through disclaimers in your inspection report you had better tread lightly.

For the point and click home inspection thermal imaging owners, you may think that you can do a qualitative inspection on a home and not be required to know all that other thermal imaging stuff. Well, the fact of the matter is, if you leave a temperature measurement on the scan (which I see all the time), you had better be able to explain that temperature measurement. It doesn't necessarily need to be a corrected temperature, but you better be able to testify everything there is to know about that measurement that you left behind. You must be able to tell the court how the un-corrected temperature reading effects the scan and that it is not correct and just how much it is not correct.

So anyone out there taking training that does not cover the full extent of basic thermal imaging; including error factor correction, temperature reflect, emissivity determination, you had better pay very close attention to how you utilize this technology.

It probably takes you longer to learn what you are not doing , then to learn how to do it right.

This is where I and others disagree when it comes the legal aspect of doing home inspections (likely a state by state thing). I read the scary scenarios that are posted here and other places but I just don't see them personally. While working with lawyers (including reading depositions) on cases regarding the builder, home occupants and the home inspector, I don't see lawyers focusing on these topics (examples: using check box reports; including digital pictures with reports; is that home inspector/WDI inspector/Radon tester/Mold inspector is truly qualified; enforcing the home inspector/owner personally liable even though he is an LLC or Corp).


When it comes to the definition of "Expert", I think there are better definitions than the one you used. Here are some that I found really fast that might be closer to what an expert is.

"very skillful; having much training and knowledge in some special field"

"a person with special knowledge or ability who performs skillfully"

"a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert."

I focused on the words "very skillful", “much knowledge”, "special knowledge", "special skill". I am a Generalist when it comes to inspecting a home. If they want to get somebody that is a level III to talk about all the technical stuff, that's fine. I'm going to stand behind what I reported. Example: I discovered what appeared to be moisture seepage with my infrared camera and I confirmed it with my moisture meter. Electrical wire showed melting insulation and infrared camera shows the wire is 120 degrees at 65% load put on circuit (I don’t remember the numbers exactly). Infrared showed a hot spot on the back of the furnace and I recommended further evaluation by a heating company due to the possibility of a crack in heat exchanger. It appears that the cavity on both sides of window has poor or missing insulation which has resulted in a 12 degree temperature difference from the rest of the wall. In each case they found that correction was needed but if for some reason these finding did not produce an existence of a problem, I think I have enough information to defend my report.

Don’t get me wrong, I thing formal education and/or educating yourself is important, I just don’t feel I need a level III education so I can defend myself against a level III expert especially when I have other things that back up what I see on the IR camera.

[David A. Andersen]

When it comes to the definition of "Expert", I think there are better definitions than the one you used.

As simplified as it appears, my definition is what exists in a court of law.This in my point. I'm not making this stuff up. This is from experience in 13 years of criminal investigation and civil court cases. As soon as I hit the stand the first thing that comes out of the other lawyers mouth is what makes me an "expert"?

99% of the time the judge will say this guy knows more about this than you and I do so I consider him an expert. Let's get on with this case.

Example: I discovered what appeared to be moisture seepage with my infrared camera and I confirmed it with my moisture meter.

Very good, you confirmed your findings. This post is not directed at you specifically, but if you look at some of my other postings on this board you will see that there are a lot of people out there (On the Internet)claiming "air infiltration", and how do you determine air infiltration into the interior of the wall that is not passing through to the interior of the house? I see a substantial number of alleged air infiltration cases where they are apparently moisture, not air.

Absolutely no supporting information about the thermal imaging measurements are provided, and I am sure that they do not exist, nor do they follow up with other test equipment to verify as you have with your moisture meter.

I am a Generalist

not anymore! There is"no generalist" protection, for a home inspector that owns a $16,000 thermal imaging camera!

the wire is 120 degrees at 65% load put on circuit

Answer this question for me (and I am not trying to call you out on the carpet here). If you are in court and provided this measured data, tell me what the approximate temperature will be when you apply 100% load to the circuit or device?

I will wait for this answer. If you cannot do so, this is the point I am trying to make.

If I am hired by a defense attorney (whom I generally despise, but you must "follow the money" to make a living) I will be asking the answer to this question.

[John McKenna]

OK... I find a hot breaker in a residential electric panel.

1- I can say... "it is hot to the touch". (sue me).
2- I can use an IR thermometer. (example 120 F) (sue me).
3- I can use an IR camera using "apparent" temperatures (example 120 F) (sue me).

#1 is acceptable information (sue me).
#2 and #3 are approx. accurate to -+2F. (sue me).

I call for further evaluation from a qualified electrician and ask for repairs as needed.

First, your going to have to find a qualified electrician to say I am incorrect and
nothing is wrong with the electrical system. Did I have a reasonable concern?
YES. The worst that can happen is the inspector was wrong and no repairs
are needed.

Just because you own an IR thermometer or an IR camera does not mean
you now have to dismantle the electrical system to diagnose all the possible
reasons for the electrical defect.

Please provide an example of a court case where an inspector lost a law
suite because he said a breaker was too hot and called for an electrician
to make further evaluations and repairs?

Keep your comments within the narrow field my question. We can create
boggy men all day, if we want.

Most Level III thermographers are not qualified to do a home inspection,
so I have tried to keep my question simple. We don't need quantum
physics to answer my simple question.

We are not talking about a murder investigation, we are talking about a
hot breaker found during a home inspection.

BTW... there is not a lawyer under your bed. Relax.

[kweiss]

I think I have to agree with John here.

There is a distinct difference in using IR as a useful tool in the course of a home inspection and using IR as a Level II or III thermographer for the purpose of electrcial circuit analysis (to use the previous example.) In the few times I have called out a hot electrical component, I make no attempt to diagnos what is wrong in detail. I simply report the conditions I find and show the pictures and recommend further investigation by a LICENSED electrical contractor to diagnos the problem.

Even if I were conducting an IR survey of an electrical compnent only, I would still only report conditions I find. I would still not be a licensed Electrician qualified to diagnos the problem. Regardless of whatever knowledge of heat tranfer and electrical conductivity that I might have which would allow me to perform the calculations you reference David.

Could some lawyer use that against me? Probably, but in a court situation that potential exists for anumber of things other than IR investigation. Does the ability to use the calculations you just learned in the level II cert class make you more qualified to perform the IR electrical scan - sure, I think so. But comparing that to moisture and air infiltration detection (assuming proper follow up and confirmation) does not seem apples to apples.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Answer this question for me (and I am not trying to call you out on the carpet here). If you are in court and provided this measured data, tell me what the approximate temperature will be when you apply 100% load to the circuit or device?

Hey, David, is it approximately 162 degrees?...I'm curious.