Purchasing Thermal imagers can hurt you

[kweiss]

I'm curious too. My answer 184.6.

[William J. Decker]

Hey, at 65% load and 120 F, it is, already, a problem.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Hey, at 65% load and 120 F, it is, already, a problem.

That may be true but it doesn't answer the question.

Hey Kevin, how'd you come up with 184.6.

Mine I just added the missing 35% to the 120 degrees.

[kweiss]

Algebra. Which is probably oversimplified but was my best guess.

[David A. Andersen]

Yes John, I understand what you're saying. If it's hot, it's hot. But what about if it's not. What about the cases where the breaker is not all that hot and you decide not to include it in your inspection report or refer it for further evaluation.

Then something happens and the house catches fire and people get hurt.

You made this decision on the information you collected. But how many people do not collect all the information, and make these decisions on incomplete information?
How many times have you seen electrical issues called out and no one took a load reading because "that is outside the scope of home inspection". Well, so is thermal imaging.

This thread is about liability. I agree with everyone. If you say it increases reliability, depending on its use it may. I personally started using thermal imaging to reduce my liability, and it does.

I am also not saying that you have to perform "quantum physics". But when you make an assessment you must be able to back up your decisions with facts and point and shoot thermodynamics does not take this into consideration.

It's not murder investigation? No but it may be negligent homicide!

Kevin, you state that you simply report conditions that you find and show pictures and recommended further investigation. The same argument holds true for your statement. The report conditions, but how you determine the conditions? You show the pictures, therefore you have just handed out your liability. Again, what is the criteria to report or not to report?

I hate to drop this and run but I have to do a two day IR trip to East Tennessee. Hopefully we can pick this up later.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Yes John, I understand what you're saying. If it's hot, it's hot. But what about if it's not. What about the cases where the breaker is not all that hot and you decide not to include it in your inspection report or refer it for further evaluation.

As soon as you say "what about all the things that are not found",
... then that debate could go on forever.

Then something happens and the house catches fire and people get hurt.

You made this decision on the information you collected. But how many people do not collect all the information, and make these decisions on incomplete information?
How many times have you seen electrical issues called out and no one took a load reading because "that is outside the scope of home inspection". Well, so is thermal imaging.

We teach people to only inspect the electric panel after everything in
the house has been turned on, in order to get a better reading of
what the panel looks like under load. You are correct and this point
reinforces the need for proper training.

This thread is about liability. I agree with everyone. If you say it increases reliability, depending on its use it may. I personally started using thermal imaging to reduce my liability, and it does.

TRUE

I am also not saying that you have to perform "quantum physics". But when you make an assessment you must be able to back up your decisions with facts and point and shoot thermodynamics does not take this into consideration.

It's not murder investigation? No but it may be negligent homicide!

I doubt you will find anyone here promoting the idea of "point and
shoot", without any type of protocal to verify defects.

Kevin, you state that you simply report conditions that you find and show pictures and recommended further investigation. The same argument holds true for your statement. The report conditions, but how you determine the conditions? You show the pictures, therefore you have just handed out your liability. Again, what is the criteria to report or not to report?

Every defect obviously has some kind of evidence in order to be
reported. Most defects will have more surprises exposed as the
evaluation and repair process starts. This is how it is suppose to
be. Inspectors report, and the specialist does more in depth
evaluation and repairs.

I hate to drop this and run but I have to do a two day IR trip to East Tennessee. Hopefully we can pick this up later.

Have a good day David.

[Kevin Luce]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Answer this question for me (and I am not trying to call you out on the carpet here). If you are in court and provided this measured data, tell me what the approximate temperature will be when you apply 100% load to the circuit or device?

I will wait for this answer. If you cannot do so, this is the point I am trying to make.

If I am hired by a defense attorney (whom I generally despise, but you must "follow the money" to make a living) I will be asking the answer to this question.

Even though the question you asked is important to know, I looked at that situation as I would seeing only one furnace that is 40,000 BTU in a 3,000 sq. ft. house running all the time while the house is only getting up to 65 degrees while it is only 20 degrees outside.

Here is the answer to your question.
Corrected temperature at full load = 120 X (1.538 raised to the 1.8 power) = 260

[Kevin Luce]

Originally Posted by lkage

That may be true but it doesn't answer the question.

Hey Kevin, how'd you come up with 184.6.

Mine I just added the missing 35% to the 120 degrees.

I know you were talking to the other Kevin but to answer your question. In my example, 100% is divide by 65% to get 1.538.

This is the formula used.
Cor. ΔT = M ΔT X ( NFL )n
ML

Cor. ΔT = the corrected temperature difference which will be apparent when the equipment is back operating at normal full load.
M ΔT = The temperature difference measured with the infrared camera using the proper emissivity and back ground settings at the time of inspection.
NFL = The normal full load in amps at which the equipment usually operates.
Note: This is not the rated load for the equipment.
ML = The measured load in amps at the time of the inspection.

Values for the exponential n
When the problem is right at the surface of the component n=1.6
When the problem is close to the surface, good heat conductivity n=1.8
When the problem is far from the surface, poor heat conductivity n=2.0

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Kevin Luce

I know you were talking to the other Kevin but to answer your question. In my example, 100% is divide by 65% to get 1.538.

This is the formula used.
Cor. ΔT = M ΔT X ( NFL )n
ML

Cor. ΔT = the corrected temperature difference which will be apparent when the equipment is back operating at normal full load.
M ΔT = The temperature difference measured with the infrared camera using the proper emissivity and back ground settings at the time of inspection.
NFL = The normal full load in amps at which the equipment usually operates.
Note: This is not the rated load for the equipment.
ML = The measured load in amps at the time of the inspection.

Values for the exponential n
When the problem is right at the surface of the component n=1.6
When the problem is close to the surface, good heat conductivity n=1.8
When the problem is far from the surface, poor heat conductivity n=2.0

Thank you.

I appreciate the lesson.

[InspectorDana]

Originally Posted by bhamilton

It said "Your customers won't be impressed"
Now I don't have a thermal imager, but just using a moisture meter and showing my clients how it works by just putting it up to my hand and seeing the meter spike always gets big eyes. I could just imagine what the thermal imager does. People like technology and feel more confident in their choices with someone who comes to the house with the right equipment, not just a flashlight and a paper checklist.

It knocks em out when I show them my hand print on the wall or the hot spots where they were just standing. This guy is s dinosaur an dis cowed by technology. I think they are called "Ludites" LOL

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by InspectorDana

I think they are called "Ludites" LOL

No...they're Thermo-phobics.