See Through Walls?

[rdawes]

Homesafe has used that "see thru walls" junk since they first started touting IR with a shoulder mounted B&W imager tied to a VCR. When I saw that ITA was working with them I called Richard Whitsett, the Dallas ITA lead instructor and grilled him about it a bit especially the "see thru walls" stuff. He said that ITA was trying to talk Homesafe out of using that phrase, I guess they didn't listen. The camera in the ad is a good one and Richard says that the course content is good. FWIW.

[Richard L. Bennett]

John

Point well taken

Here is the problem - It is the wall. As we all know very few are "see through" material but lawyer only needs one to make the case

Might be time to get the some client grade educational material out and about

rlb

[Jay Markanich]

[/quote]Even if you could use a "one in a thousand" definition of a word,
it would make you look shady to say the least, and plain deceitful
at worst.

The IR camera sees the surface energy coming from materials
(through emission or reflectance... almost never transmission) and
sometimes the energy from the other side of those materials makes
it through to show it's image. We do not see through the materials
used in building construction. Let's be honest with the consumer and
our selves. Setting proper expectations is what protects everyone.[/quote]

John is right. This back and forth is not profitable. To say it "sees through walls" (plural) is silly at best, and in my opinion deceitful. I don't see an asterisk with a disclaimer...

None of us wants to be associated with something that even has the appearance of deceit or wrong or silly. I think professionalism shuold reign. To say the ad writers are safe if a "lawyer" can show "one wall in court" is the same - the ad says the device sees through walls - clients hear or see that and think what you and I think they think. And in court, with a really ticked off client, only ONE wall that is not see through would likely be enough. "I have a problem with my concrete block wall and the ad says they can see through it... well, they couldn't!"

Once on an IR inspection my client asked if I could see through the poured concrete wall into the under area of the garage (where a problem was originating) and I simply said, "No."

I'm looking forward to your class, John.

[David A. Andersen]

OK, let's cut the crap!

As I have posted numerous times there is all kinds of bogus crap on the Internet implying that we have Superman vision! There are all kinds of thermal scans posted on the Internet that don't show anything. Interpretations of the thermal scans are totally bogus.

In order to see through a wall it must be highly transmissive. One of the primary things that causes your camera to be so expensive is the lens. Very few materials allow sufficient transmittance to adequately "see" through the object and still observed the anomaly. So, if you're making your wall out of a plastic bag, I guess you can say you can see through the wall!

There is enough bull crap going around that screws up everybody's perception on this infrared stuff without having to play games with words. Leave it to the lawyers.

As John posted, show us some pictures and cut the crap with the wording.

People trying to use thermography have a big enough problem trying to understand that if you have a sheet rock wall, you are not measuring the gypsum, you are not measuring the paper, you're not measuring the primer, you are measuring the painted surface or anything on the painted surface. If you have a film of oil on an object, you must use the emissivity sitting of the oil not the object. So let's quit trying to make this more complicated and screwed up than it already is!

Here is the problem - It is the wall. As we all know very few are "see through" material but lawyer only needs one to make the case"

Quit playing lawyer. It's not a problem, It's a waste of time to try to figure out what a lawyer might do in court. All they're trying to do is get you flustered so you screw up.

You can "detect" things in the wall, you can't see them. Besides, if you want to get technical, you're not seeing anything. Digital Cameras record reflected visible light. Infrared cameras create a graphical representation of the emitted energy. It is not "visible light" which is required in the definition of "seeing".

visual perception is the ability to interpret information from visible light </wiki/Visible_light> reaching the eyes </wiki/Eye>.

[David P. Valley]

If you're going to falsely claim (to the public) that you can actually see through walls, you might as well use my logo...



And I'd love to see the awesome images of the IR camera that is looking through the walls.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jmarkanich

John is right. This back and forth is not profitable. To say it "sees through walls" (plural) is silly at best, and in my opinion deceitful. I don't see an asterisk with a disclaimer...

None of us wants to be associated with something that even has the appearance of deceit or wrong or silly. I think professionalism shuold reign. To say the ad writers are safe if a "lawyer" can show "one wall in court" is the same - the ad says the device sees through walls - clients hear or see that and think what you and I think they think. And in court, with a really ticked off client, only ONE wall that is not see through would likely be enough. "I have a problem with my concrete block wall and the ad says they can see through it... well, they couldn't!"

Once on an IR inspection my client asked if I could see through the poured concrete wall into the under area of the garage (where a problem was originating) and I simply said, "No."

I'm looking forward to your class, John.

See you in class Jay..!!!
Good post.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by rbennett

John

Point well taken

Here is the problem - It is the wall. As we all know very few are "see through" material but lawyer only needs one to make the case

Might be time to get the some client grade educational material out and about

rlb

Should I write my ad copy to help the client understand real world expectations,
or write it in such an exaggerated fashion it would take a lawyer to explain how
in some rare situations I might be telling the truth...? NOT.

In 25 years of construction and 10 years as an inspector, I have never seen
a wall built with materials that an IR camera can 'see' through.

Who are we serving with such trickery? Not the Client.

[David P. Valley]

If this guy can "see through walls", then my special high tech one-of-a-kind hand held infrared camera can see right through clothes. And I absolutely love it.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2...ough_walls.htm

You can see through walls, ha. ha.

[Richard L. Bennett]

If someone says they can see through walls and they can't but they get the client I get upset

Now do I say I also can see through walls or do I say that they are being un-professional and misleading???

Should I go so far as to report them to the state etc.

It is sort of like using the word "Certified" when one is not.

We all like to show the client that we are his or her best choice

So what should we with a competitor that is guilty of false advertising??

---- I don't like more government control to protect the consumer------

The ball is back in your court

rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

As a note -- we are not serving anyone with "trickery" but our competitor down the street is -- he is serving himself

He is like Bill Clinton talking about sex

Remember that most of our clients don't understand a moisture meter and what a high reading means

Remember if it is not costing you $$ today it will in the future

rlb

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Here is the problem - It is the wall. As we all know very few are "see through" material but lawyer only needs one to make the case

rlb

One to make the case?

How bout this line of questioning...
With your IR camera...
Can you see through drywall?
Can you see through plaster?
Can you see through concrete?
Stone?
Brick?
etc...

How do you think a jury (or judge) would react to the multitude of things you cannot see through to find that there is only one (in your world) that you can see through?

Or how about setting up 3-4 small walls and holding something (different color objects, perhaps) behind them and asking the defendant to see what color object is behind there.

Would make good courtroom drama.
And show that you cannot see through walls with an IR camera (not even one).
</IMG>

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by rbennett

If someone says they can see through walls and they can't but they get the client I get upset

Now do I say I also can see through walls or do I say that they are being un-professional and misleading???

Should I go so far as to report them to the state etc.

It is sort of like using the word "Certified" when one is not.

We all like to show the client that we are his or her best choice

So what should we with a competitor that is guilty of false advertising??

---- I don't like more government control to protect the consumer------

The ball is back in your court

rlb

Do the right thing, regardless.

It's called being a man of character and principles.

[bdoles2]

Originally Posted by rmaday

One to make the case?

How bout this line of questioning...
With your IR camera...
Can you see through drywall?
Can you see through plaster?
Can you see through concrete?
Stone?
Brick?
etc...

How do you think a jury (or judge) would react to the multitude of things you cannot see through to find that there is only one (in your world) that you can see through?

Or how about setting up 3-4 small walls and holding something (different color objects, perhaps) behind them and asking the defendant to see what color object is behind there.

Would make good courtroom drama.
And show that you cannot see through walls with an IR camera (not even one).
</IMG>

Very good and right on the money.

I guess I don't need to carry my lead suit for customers anymore-they all thought I could see them naked - so I told them to wear this while I am inspecting.

[Richard L. Bennett]

All - remember that the other inspector will show missing insulation - moisture - missing rebar - dead electrical heating zones etc.

Has he proven his point?? --- Can a good IR man "see" things that a non IR person can not?

If you were looking at all points would you say that he could see through walls?

Remember he could see things that you could not and it was behind the wall


No where did someone say that they could see everything

I too say it is wrong but what do we want to do - Join them or fight them?

rlb