What TI training and/or certificates are absoultely needed?

[Jeffrey Moore]

I think that like most avenues of study, education varies greatly from provider to provider. In most instances, quality education is not cheap. For most home inspectors Johns' course(from what I have read) will give you basic info enough to make images. Proper interpretation of these images requires a thorough understanding of the technology and the pitfalls.

If and I state again if, you do not have the education necessary to properly interpret the images and you make a mistake, watch out. If you have received your Level 1 cert and you do not have a Level 3 to help with protocols and as a backup for interp questions, watch out. Level 1 does not allow you to operate independently and sets you up for trouble if someone questions your stuff. Scott Warga has a blog on his web site that basically tells agents to question Level1 people as to who their Level 3 is.

So bottom line is --- Do as you want but be ready to back up your education and knowledge if and when the time comes.

JMHO

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

I think that like most avenues of study, education varies greatly from provider to provider. In most instances, quality education is not cheap. For most home inspectors Johns' course(from what I have read) will give you basic info enough to make images. Proper interpretation of these images requires a thorough understanding of the technology and the pitfalls.

If and I state again if, you do not have the education necessary to properly interpret the images and you make a mistake, watch out. If you have received your Level 1 cert and you do not have a Level 3 to help with protocols and as a backup for interp questions, watch out. Level 1 does not allow you to operate independently and sets you up for trouble if someone questions your stuff. Scott Warga has a blog on his web site that basically tells agents to question Level1 people as to who their Level 3 is.

So bottom line is --- Do as you want but be ready to back up your education and knowledge if and when the time comes.

JMHO

Why did FLIR-ITC create a IR certification course for building
science to answer the need of building inspectors? They
do not tell people to go back and take Level I after they
complete their building science course. What would you
say to them?

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

I think that like most avenues of study, education varies greatly from provider to provider. In most instances, quality education is not cheap. For most home inspectors Johns' course(from what I have read) will give you basic info enough to make images. Proper interpretation of these images requires a thorough understanding of the technology and the pitfalls.

If and I state again if, you do not have the education necessary to properly interpret the images and you make a mistake, watch out. If you have received your Level 1 cert and you do not have a Level 3 to help with protocols and as a backup for interp questions, watch out. Level 1 does not allow you to operate independently and sets you up for trouble if someone questions your stuff. Scott Warga has a blog on his web site that basically tells agents to question Level1 people as to who their Level 3 is.

So bottom line is --- Do as you want but be ready to back up your education and knowledge if and when the time comes.

JMHO

Jeff,

Don't be fooled by what others are saying or what you are reading on someones website blog. Investigate and become informed and educated, so you can make your own decisions.

Scott Warga's blog has a lot of hyperbole and misinformation. He is certainly entitled to his "opinion," but there is a fine line between an opinion and describing facts.

Kevin

[David A. Andersen]

The certification level that you obtain should include combined education and experience. I know of a level III's that managed to make it there in a couple of months!

This is not the intention of the program. Any program that allows progression without work experience is not worth its salt (as far as I'm concerned).


ITC ($1,750 ea.)

Level I: trains the operator to use the camera and identify anomalies.

Level II: trains supervisors of level I operators and increase his ability to identify anomalies and supervise infrared programs.

Level III: is the person that writes the infrared programs and disseminates protocol to level II and below operators.

The program is designed as a "continuing education" process. You must do at least 25% of your job description performing infrared.

I suppose you can get through the course faster if your a quick learner, but you're experience level suffers.

I took building science, level I and level II. All are redundant to a great extent. And actually I used my lower-level books in the upper-level courses. All the information is provided, but not necessarily covered in the same detail in each course. How much you actually learn is dependent upon the class participants.

As some "certified infrared trainers" will point out, this is not rocket science. You just have to push a few buttons on a camera! There's nothing to it!

You may be able to learn one application, but when unknowns pop up or you're asked to perform a service outside of your one specialty you will have no background to fall back on.

All this stuff that you have seen on the Internet is just an" introduction" and is in no way sufficient for a one-man operation. You have no boss or level III to write, initiate and supervise your program. You have to do it all yourself! That is where the program suffers the most. That is where all the bogus information comes from on the Internet. You have people that are not even qualified at a level I attempting to perform level III business practices without the experience or education.

Just my thoughts.

For those of you that "think" you know all that kindergarten level one stuff, would you like me to post a few questions from that course?

I know some outstanding level II instructors that know more than I can conceptualize. Your level is not important. What you learned and what you can do is.

I also know some instructors that haven't gotten past TI kindergarten...

[John McKenna]

I also know that the VAST majority of Level III thermographers
cannot do a home inspection with an IR camera (according to
the Level III guys and instructors at FLIR-ITC that I have talked to).

Titles mean little in this business.

I would love David to impress us with hard questions. I am sure
we will all enjoy this.

Give us your best shot.

[Jeffrey Moore]

Kevin,

Mr. Warga just happens to be in my local area. He even passed this info
out at a conference I went to.

My concerns are that if someone gets challenged on their images because they made a mistake ie. called out moisture when upon destructive testing it wasn't type of thing.
The education you have received and your knowledge base will be explored.
Time in field along with proper education is a foundation you can draw upon.

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

Kevin,

Mr. Warga just happens to be in my local area. He even passed this info
out at a conference I went to.

Then he is disseminating bad information!

First, The ASTM Standard is "voluntary" and is not meant to provide specific or mandated procedures. It is merely a guideline.

Second, you do not have to work under a Level III Thermographer.

Originally Posted by jmoore5

My concerns are that if someone gets challenged on their images because they made a mistake ie. called out moisture when upon destructive testing it wasn't type of thing.
The education you have received and your knowledge base will be explored.
Time in field along with proper education is a foundation you can draw upon.

I guess this could be a valid concern, but it really would not matter what level you are certified. This could happen to a Level I, II, or III.

Kevin

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by krichardson

Then he is disseminating bad information!

First, The ASTM Standard is "voluntary" and is not meant to provide specific or mandated procedures. It is merely a guideline.

Second, you do not have to work under a Level III Thermographer.



I guess this could be a valid concern, but it really would not matter what level you are certified. This could happen to a Level I, II, or III.

Kevin

Sounds familiar

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by prussell

Sounds familiar

If you have something to contribute to the pertinent discussion of the tread, then please do so. However, it seems that your intention is just to be a smart ***. Please take it somewhere else.

It's obvious you have something personal against me. I could really care less, but if you would like to discuss the matter further, then feel free to email me at kevin@richnspect.com.

Kevin

[dbelmont]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

Kevin,

Mr. Warga just happens to be in my local area. He even passed this info
out at a conference I went to.

My concerns are that if someone gets challenged on their images because they made a mistake ie. called out moisture when upon destructive testing it wasn't type of thing.
The education you have received and your knowledge base will be explored.
Time in field along with proper education is a foundation you can draw upon.

But the only reason one would get challanged is if you made a definitive statement you didn't have the evidence for.

I do a scan and see an an artifact. Is it moisture? At this point I don't know. Can I get a moisture meter (of some type) into a place to confirm? If so then I say I say an artifact and use a moisture which also indicated moisture.

If the MM doesn't confirm then I surely don't call it moisture (or anything else) based on just a thermal scan. I may recommend a procedure to determine what it is, if anything. Or do so myself if that is part of my agreement.

This is not a matter of not knowing enough or having sufficient detailed training. A thermal anomaly in and of itself is just a suggestion to something that needs other appropriate examination to be defined. (MM, boroscope, demolition, etc)

As part of my business I do equine scans. Not being a VEt I don't make diagnosis. I just point the way to anomalies that the vet can use as a guide for other sorts of diagnostic testing. The key there and in other situations is don't claim you have the truth wwhen all you have is a poiter to follow up on.

If anyone expects that more training will somehow teach you that a smudge of such and such a patern, style, density is such and such a deffect will be sadly disappointed.

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by krichardson

If you have something to contribute to the pertinent discussion of the tread, then please do so. However, it seems that your intention is just to be a smart ***. Please take it somewhere else.

It's obvious you have something personal against me. I could really care less, but if you would like to discuss the matter further, then feel free to email me at kevin@richnspect.com.

Kevin

Kevin, believe it or not I have a lot of respect for you, or at least use to, because of how far you've come in the past few years with regard to IR, training and how professional your web site has been.

Now with your new web site you are not only mis-using the BPI logo you are misleading the public by making them believe our company is something it isn't. You claim to have the "home green team" you say terms like our inspectors. All of this is misleading and it appear to me, JMHO, that you want the public to think you have a team of professionals waiting to serve them when it's only you.

If I feel this way after finding out that your only a one man show just think of how your clients will feel. For the life of me I can't understand why someone with as much talent as you has to portray an image other than what you actually are or what your business is about.

If I've pissed you of sorry, as I said I used to have a lot of respect for you and your posts where helpful to me when I first got into IR. I've been in business and have dealt with the public for 25 years and I have always put honesty first, deceptive marketing will hurt you in the long run and I've seen many companies come and go because of it.

And by the way, I'm not a smart *****, just another inspector offering an opinion.

Best of luck with your new business model.

[Kevin A. Richardson]

Originally Posted by prussell

Kevin, believe it or not I have a lot of respect for you, or at least use to, because of how far you've come in the past few years with regard to IR, training and how professional your web site has been.

Now with your new web site you are not only mis-using the BPI logo you are misleading the public by making them believe our company is something it isn't. You claim to have the "home green team" you say terms like our inspectors. All of this is misleading and it appear to me, JMHO, that you want the public to think you have a team of professionals waiting to serve them when it's only you.

If I feel this way after finding out that your only a one man show just think of how your clients will feel. For the life of me I can't understand why someone with as much talent as you has to portray an image other than what you actually are or what your business is about.

If I've pissed you of sorry, as I said I used to have a lot of respect for you and your posts where helpful to me when I first got into IR. I've been in business and have dealt with the public for 25 years and I have always put honesty first, deceptive marketing will hurt you in the long run and I've seen many companies come and go because of it.

And by the way, I'm not a smart *****, just another inspector offering an opinion.

Best of luck with your new business model.

First, what the heck does any of what you just said have any relation to the subject of this thread? If you have a problem with me personally, please contact me and we can discuss it.

Not that I have to explain myself or my business model to you, but the "Home Green Team" has nothing to do with marketing "multiple inspectors" as you suggest. It is a concept that I have developed to market a "Team" approach to conducting the Home Performance Retrofits. I have a "Team" of contractors that have signed up with me to offer my home energy performance energy audit clients retrofit work.

For the record, you don't know me and we have never spoke personally. So, you have no idea or clue what my business plans is for my new division. Yes, I am currently a one man shop with respect to my residential company, but I'm actively seeking "Certified BPI Analysts" to help with my new division. I conduct 40 to 45 inspections a month and with this new division, that volume is likely to go up past 60 a month. It's a simple process, I or another BPI Certified Analyst that I hire will conduct the Home Energy Performance Audit, then my "Team" of contractors will help the client with the retrofit work. It's explained on this page: http://www.thehomegreenteam.com/green-team-network.html I'm not misleading anyone!!!

As far as the usage of the BPI logo, I have already contacted BPI and they do not have ANY issue with the the way I have used my logo on MY QUALIFICATIONS page. So, if you have an issue, then I suggest you contact BPI.

Instead of making accusations and assumptions why not just call and we can discuss this further. Actually, I called your office last night and left you my home and cell numbers. If you still have a problem with me or how I operate my businesses, then please feel free to call. I'm available anytime!

It's 1:00pm EST and I'm sitting in my truck writing a report and waiting for my 3:00pm appointment.

Kevin

[David A. Andersen]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

I also know that the VAST majority of Level III thermographers
cannot do a home inspection with an IR camera (according to
the Level III guys and instructors at FLIR-ITC that I have talked to).

Yes, that is likely true. I'm not questioning your observation, but I don't think you could do their job either!

The instructor that teaches building science at ITC is a level II .
I guess that makes him qualified.
If he ever takes level III, he'll have to find another teaching job I guess!



Titles mean little in this business.

I would love David to impress us with hard questions. I am sure
we will all enjoy this.
I hope you're not being a smartass, because I was just planning on taking a few questions from the course and posts them here so those that think it's a waste of their time could further assess their knowledge base.


Give us your best shot.

I don't think so, I have better things to do with my time (like work!).