EnergyStar fraud

[William J. Decker]

As I have been saying, for a long while, putting some "Government Approved" sticker on something doesn't mean that it is valid.

There are many local building codes that are, in reality, just plain wrong.

It appears that the EnergyStar "standards" are also.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/sc...26star.html?hp

And fron the "green" New York Times, to boot.

And, I would also posit, that BPI, RESNET and LEEDS are similarly flawed.

These are not so much about producing a valid, scientifically and reality based standard, but at least as much in producing a government imposed monopoly.

Hope this helps;

[Peter C. Russell]

Hey Will, what does products that carry the energy star label have to do with BPI, RESNET and LEEDS???
What you posted an be compared with bad home inspectors to good one's, you'll always find a bad apple in the whole basket.

And no, it does not "help"

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by prussell

Hey Will, what does products that carry the energy star label have to do with BPI, RESNET and LEEDS???
What you posted an be compared with bad home inspectors to good one's, you'll always find a bad apple in the whole basket.

And no, it does not "help"

Well said Peter.

[William J. Decker]

What I am saying is that the various "standards" for energy audits and energy efficiency in houses are not, for the most part, based upon objective scientific pronciples, but seem to be more concerned with getting their standards accepted and approved by the government so that the group who has prepared it has a monopoly and can rake in the income.

Many of these groups have web based computer programs that the inspector has to pay for each report. This provides a continuing source of income and this income, once a standard is government approved, is guarenteed.

Likewise education. People profit from that as well.

As has been stated in opther threads, this may have been the reason that another HI association has been pushing state licensing. Once their SOP and test have state approval, they have a continuing source of income.

I would much rather see a standard that is not "owned" and is freely available to all. And a standard that is objective and not tied to "green" activist groups or government imposed political correctness.

Just my opinion.

[David A. Andersen]

Peter, things are not working as well in other parts of the country as they are in NH.

The correlation is that "Raters" must be consistant and be able to recreate the same test results reguardless of who does the test. This may be difficult in a self regulated industry.

We can't be so naïve as to think that people doing energy improvements are not prone to manipulating the numbers.

Yes, it is just like one bad home inspector out of a bunch. However the green movement is getting a serious black eye starting from the top down (no pun intended).

There are so many different standards among the standards, consistency is impossible.
The state of Tennessee requires a 1.5 day TVA to course for all government subsidized work. Did you learn all the information at BPI in 1.5 days? nope!

Mr. Decker is from Obamaland, remember?
He is bound to have a different perception of government controlled subsidies.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Mr. Decker is from Obamaland, remember?
He is bound to have a different perception of government controlled subsidies.

What do you mean by this?

You may be mistaken.

[David A. Andersen]

No, just that you may have a better understanding of the workings of the current Gov. agenda as it originated closer to you than the rest of us. I'm assuming you had to put up with him longer than we have!

I never heard of this Obama character till he ran for Pres.

By the way, keep a close look at Home Star. Obama & Kerry have there paws in the puddin! Sounds like a good program, but I don't like who is pushing the buttons.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by dandersen

No, just that you may have a better understanding of the workings of the current Gov. agenda as it originated closer to you than the rest of us. I'm assuming you had to put up with him longer than we have!

I never heard of this Obama character till he ran for Pres.

By the way, keep a close look at Home Star. Obama & Kerry have there paws in the puddin! Sounds like a good program, but I don't like who is pushing the buttons.

In reply, and based upon me growing up in the Beverly neighborhood (where most of the "middle management" of the original Daley Machine lived) here is my take.

1) Don't believe what he (the President) says, but look to what he does. See here for some clear proof:

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.c...DA3NmQyNmIxYmI=

2) You have to understand Chicago. Around here, very few regular people buck the system. To do so would bring the Police (multiple traffic and parking tickets), the Building Dept. (all the codies descend on you and check every little thing, and write you up and demand that you vacate the property until they are fixed (and you MUST use Union tradesmen with permits that take forever to be issued) and re-inspected), the courts, and Jesse Jackson's "protestors" (also called "Hire a Mob". Ever wonder how this guy became a multi-millionaire as a mere Pastor?).

3) Never underestimate the power of the term "Racist" or "Sexist" or "Homophobe". Even though President Obama is only half black, and he never even dated a black women until he dated Michelle, and his own book describes all these things, he can bring to bear GREAT power, through the media:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/op...ml?ref=opinion

All it takes is some name calling and everyone does his work for him.

3) Look at what has already happened. Health care passes. It will raise company costs for health benefits. Companies, as required by law, re-file their financial statements with the SEC, to reflect these new expenses. And what happens? They get called before a Senate committee, are forced to produce truckloads of confidential financial information and called on the carpet, in front of the press, for daring to plan for these new expenses:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...445136066.html

4) Whenever you can, look up a columnist for the Chicago Tribune, named John Kass. He is the successor to Mike Royko, and knows the city political machine inside and out. He has been trying to get the national media to understand that President Obama is just an old Chicago Pol for years:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...4939258.column

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2...-kass-21-jun21

And, this, from another good site:

http://chicagoagainstobama.wordpress...he-obama-fans/

We, in Illinois, know how President Obama and the Chicago Machine works. We have lived it for all of our lives. Why do you think that the Rev. Jesse, years ago, looked like a shoe in for the Democrat Presidential nomination, until the Illinois Primary? We all knew that he was a crook, but the national media were so enthrawled with him. Same thing here.

Hope this helps;

[Larry J. Michael]

Great article.

[Jason Kaylor]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Many of these groups have web based computer programs that the inspector has to pay for each report. This provides a continuing source of income and this income, once a standard is government approved, is guarenteed.

Likewise education. People profit from that as well.

As has been stated in opther threads, this may have been the reason that another HI association has been pushing state licensing. Once their SOP and test have state approval, they have a continuing source of income.

I would much rather see a standard that is not "owned" and is freely available to all. And a standard that is objective and not tied to "green" activist groups or government imposed political correctness.

Wow Will, to get the Utopia you are after you would literally have to throw away everything that you own that uses some form of software, service, calibration....basically anything with a re-accuring cost associated with it. That means no computer, cell phone, utilities, automobile or house....among other things. That borders on communism.

Not that I am against this, but what about the same government(s) that passed manidatory home inspections.....should we throw that out also? Just like Peter stated there are bad home inspectors out there, but ultimately I think the home inspection system works. It helps to limit the amount of fraud and greed that could potentially happen in the real estate market.

Everything is open to manipulation, greed and fraud. In the words of the great Warren Buffett "Capitalism can breed greed and fruad, but it also eventually spits those individuals or companies out, and the strong survive. Over the past 200 years we have lived in the greatest economy ever to exist. I would never change capitalism just because of the few that try to cheat or game the system". That was a quote of his during a recent CNBC special where Warren Buffett and Bill Gates were asked questions from Columbia University students about the future of capitalism.

Government is not where our contries money is spent or saved, and yet people get so worked up over it. Last year the largest US company, Exxon Mobile, had revenue of $277B. That is about 12% of all government spending for the year 2010. That is just one company. If Exxon Mobile decided to give free health care away to all of its employees everyone would think it was one of the greatest things that a company could ever do. And yet our government decides to do it, and it is the end of the world.

JJ

[ldapkus]

Jason,
Do you realize you're preaching to a Certified Master Energy Auditor???

[William J. Decker]

I will keep my comments limited to the topic at hand, i.e., energy auditing, and stay away from the red-herrings in this post.

Originally Posted by jkaylor

Wow Will, to get the Utopia you are after you would literally have to throw away everything that you own that uses some form of software, service, calibration....basically anything with a re-accuring cost associated with it. That means no computer, cell phone, utilities, automobile or house....among other things. That borders on communism.

Not my point at all. I used to write software and know that software vendors always hope to "hook" you so that they can sell you the "latest release" every year. I am still using Quickbooks 2005 and it works fine for me. Why should I pay some $200 every year to Quicken to "upgrade" something that already works perfectly well and is what I am use to. The last time I upgrade Quickbooks, it took me a week (wasted time) to re-learn what I already knew. And there was no new "functionality" that I cared for or that helped me better run my business.

Same with Homeguage. Good program, and I am not knocking it. but why should I pay every year to upgrade what is already working perfectly fine. Same with Windows XP and Word and Excel PowerPoint and all the other software I use.


If I pay for something, I expect it to work. If I find out that there is some new, needed and productive software, I will buy it. But don't force me to do so if I do not want to.

If it works, there is no reason to fix it. If something better comes along, I will evaluate it, according to my needs, and buy it if it helps.

Thing cell phones. I use mine for phone calls, not web access, e-mail, text or GPS. But, it is practically impossible to by a cell phone that is JUST a cell phone. Why should I pay 50% more for functionality I never use?

Not that I am against this, but what about the same government(s) that passed manidatory home inspections.....should we throw that out also? Just like Peter stated there are bad home inspectors out there, but ultimately I think the home inspection system works. It helps to limit the amount of fraud and greed that could potentially happen in the real estate market.

Manditory "code inspections " (not home inspections) are a valid service that LOCAL government provides for the public good. But, at least around here, they are rarely as complete or thorough as actual home inspections. The codies inspect to the current local codes. At least in Illinois, HIs are required to inspect to "current national standard" which is a higher standard.


And, working around Chicago, you don't have to explain to me about fraud and greed (both public and private).

Everything is open to manipulation, greed and fraud. In the words of the great Warren Buffett "Capitalism can breed greed and fruad, but it also eventually spits those individuals or companies out, and the strong survive. Over the past 200 years we have lived in the greatest economy ever to exist. I would never change capitalism just because of the few that try to cheat or game the system". That was a quote of his during a recent CNBC special where Warren Buffett and Bill Gates were asked questions from Columbia University students about the future of capitalism.

I am very much against government, which knows very little and has pretty much ultimate authority (but no liability), setting standards (and enacting them into law) when there are many private, and more scientifically based and authoritative groups out there that do a better job.

What I object to is such a group setting a standard, based more upon political rational than on-the-ground realities, and getting the government to squash all its competitors by enacting the groups particular standards into law. This stops all competition and innovation.

In short, when the government (federal) tries to "help" they usually mess things up more:

1) Social Security - 78 some years to get it right. Now it's broke.
2) Medicare - 43 some years to get it right. Now its broke.

(between these two, there are some $12 trillion of outstanding liability, with no assets to pay for them).

3) Railroads (Amtrack) - Broke. Subsidies every year. Ditto the U.S. Mail Service.

In short, whatever the federal government tries to "fix" it breaks. This is because the federal government does not know how to run a business, and believes that it can just pass a law and reality will change.

JJ

Sorry if you misunderstood the thrust of my arguement.

Hope this helps;

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by ldapkus

Jason,
Do you realize you're preaching to a Certified Master Energy Auditor???

Point taken, Linus.

The titles (private or public) mean little. It is the actual individual and their expertize, honesty and ethics that matter most.

My whole point is that a federal government imprintar is, in the final analysis, just about as valid.

thanks;

[Jason Kaylor]

Funny you threw in that last line, Will. I was going to add to my post that the only thing I really wish the government would change its to have a guy like a Buffet in there running it as a business, at least a non profit one. That is one of those situations where you have to watch what you ask for because you might just get it. It would actually be possible to mess things up even more and cause higher taxes by running it as a business for profit.

JJ

[Rob London]

you do realize, Will......that Obama won Illinois by a fairly huge margin. So much for Chicagoans filtering out "old Chicago Pol"s before they get to the national stage.