Episode 53 - Home Inspector's Electrical Wall of Defects

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by ccurrins

All in all nice informative video. When they are more than a hour long how much trouble would it be to divide into part 1 & 2?

No trouble.
Great question.

Chris has developed something crazy cool for NACHI.TV -
When the viewer hits "play," the video can instantly jump to where the viewer left off previously.

This feature will be necessary for the future stucco and HVAC courses being developed.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Sure James...I would love too.

What you have here is many manufactures saying that only their branded breakers can be installed in a panel of that manufacturer even in the event of replacement breakers. What happened is a class action suit was bought and a court ruling came out called the Magnisson Moss Act ( I think I spelled that right ) which said that if a third party certified a product that it could be installed in a manufactures panel and approved to work in that product without violation of any warranty.

So basically Eaton Cutler Hammer ( who probably makes most breakers anyway ) went through the process of getting their Classfied Product line third party listed by UL to be used on many of the panels on the market today.

So what they did ( and I do have inside knowledge on this ) was under the listing process with UL had all the manufactuered panels they make the breakers for and they were used, tested and approved as UL Listed product to be used in other manufacturers panelboards.

OK...lets look at 110.3(B):


(B) Installation and Use.

Listed or labeled equipment

shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

Now...on the new construction installation you are correct......however we are speaking of replacement breakers which have been UL Listed for use in the panel because the panel says one thing but in a replacement situation you are looking for breakers that are listed to be installed in that panel....the classified versions have been UL Listed for use in the brands that are specific to the guide provided with the Classified style breakers.

It is of MY opinion that when a breaker is UL Listed for use in a panel it is approved for that panel because UL lists both items just at different points.

We also have to remember an important thing...as HI's you are looking at Classifieds that go into lets say panels ( lets us an ITE ) and they use a classified breaker which has a 5 year warranty....chances are even if you did void some warranty with the ITE panel.....it expired a LONG TIME AGO....so these are new warranties and since they are UL Listed.....would have been tested and approved for the panel as the later date.....

Does that explain it........remember I did not make this up....it is important to read the Magnesssun Moss Act ( man I know I am spelling that wrong )

What it does not mean is....can I stick a BR in an ITE panel.......nothing of the sort...these are special UL Listed breakers that have been tested for the panels in which they are listed for.......took Eaton quite some time to get this done....thats why they have them for Square D also......notice why Square D can't sue them.....because they are approved.

The intent of Classified Breakers as I stated are for the renovation market, the court case said that no one can tell you what replacement part can be used in a certain product IF it was tested and approved by a third party for use in that product. Kinda like buying after market car parts....why not make you buy factory brand.....because the courts said if it is a replacement and it is listed ( UL in this case ) then it is fine to be used and wont void any warranties.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Sure James...I would love too.

What you have here is many manufactures saying that only their branded breakers can be installed in a panel of that manufacturer even in the event of replacement breakers. What happened is a class action suit was bought and a court ruling came out called the Magnisson Moss Act ( I think I spelled that right ) which said that if a third party certified a product that it could be installed in a manufactures panel and approved to work in that product without violation of any warranty.

So basically Eaton Cutler Hammer ( who probably makes most breakers anyway ) went through the process of getting their Classfied Product line third party listed by UL to be used on many of the panels on the market today.

So what they did ( and I do have inside knowledge on this ) was under the listing process with UL had all the manufactuered panels they make the breakers for and they were used, tested and approved as UL Listed product to be used in other manufacturers panelboards.

OK...lets look at 110.3(B):


(B) Installation and Use.

Listed or labeled equipment

shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions

included in the listing or labeling.

Now...on the new construction installation you are correct......however we are speaking of replacement breakers which have been UL Listed for use in the panel because the panel says one thing but in a replacement situation you are looking for breakers that are listed to be installed in that panel....the classified versions have been UL Listed for use in the brands that are specific to the guide provided with the Classified style breakers.

It is of MY opinion that when a breaker is UL Listed for use in a panel it is approved for that panel because UL lists both items just at different points.

We also have to remember an important thing...as HI's you are looking at Classifieds that go into lets say panels ( lets us an ITE ) and they use a classified breaker which has a 5 year warranty....chances are even if you did void some warranty with the ITE panel.....it expired a LONG TIME AGO....so these are new warranties and since they are UL Listed.....would have been tested and approved for the panel as the later date.....

Does that explain it........remember I did not make this up....it is important to read the Magnesssun Moss Act ( man I know I am spelling that wrong )

What it does not mean is....can I stick a BR in an ITE panel.......nothing of the sort...these are special UL Listed breakers that have been tested for the panels in which they are listed for.......took Eaton quite some time to get this done....thats why they have them for Square D also......notice why Square D can't sue them.....because they are approved.

Thank you.

I still find it prudent, however, to call out the Challenger box with the Siemens, GE and Square D breakers mixed in with the originals. 110.3B certainly provides me with the backing to do it...and I am more comfortable to allow others to interpret lawsuits and how they might apply to the service panel I am inspecting.

I did find this at the Mike Holt site some time ago, and have referred to it often:

Mike: Seems you had a wide variety of comments. Most seemed to indicate that the practice of installing something that the panelboard manufacturers label clearly prohibits would be putting yourself way out on the limb.

Square D's position is simple. Our panelboards are clearly marked with what circuit breakers are permitted to be installed. Installation of anything contrary to that marking will void our warranty and we will certainly make that point loud and clear should something go wrong with the installation. This is not only based on our listing, but also takes into account the 40+ years of design and application expertise our engineers put into the circuit breaker/panelboard combination.

I have seen many comments that indicate that this is only a "scare tactic,” etc. However, keep in mind that the product standards have, for many, many years, required that the panelboard be marked with the circuit breakers that are permitted to be installed, and for good reason. When manufacturer “A” says that their breaker can be installed in manufacturer “B” catalog XX-XXXX panelboard, I wonder which version of that panel they were talking about. The version made in 1998, 1993, 1989, 1985, 1980, etc? Keep in mind that the catalog number might be the same, but the design changed many times. This is where the panelboard manufacturer spends a great deal of time, making sure that things are compatible. Manufacturer “A” would have no idea what the "history" of that product was through all those years.

The vast majority of electrical inspectors (and electrical contractors) will tell you that they go by what is marked on the panel. Do anything else, has too many variables.

Jim Pauley, P.E.

Square D Company

[Mark A. Timpani, CMI]

Even an hour is too long. It should be divided into more sections.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by mtimpani

Even an hour is too long. It should be divided into more sections.

It may be a long video, but it's no big deal to view the long videos just as I did. This particular video was over two hours and it took me 4 different times to finally complete this video. I simply clicked on the video link and just moved the lower slide to the exact location I had left off on the last time I viewed it. It wasn't convenient waiting for the full video to upload completely, but it didn't take that long either.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

James,

The problem is this...we would expect as much for Square D to make that statement. Why..because they loose money on the replacement breakers and they dont have a classified breaker as of yet....stands to reason.

It would be foolish to think Eaton...a company that is larger that Snyder I believe...anyway the two major powerhouses at best....and think that Eaton would even begin to venture into the "Classified" breaker world unless they knew exactly what they were doing and made it clear with UL.....so in the end....Square D can say what they wish....The Magnusun Moss Act has spoken on the issue of replacement parts.....Eaton's attorneys have already figured this one out....

IN the end....would you not prefer to have a NEW "classified" breaker in a panel as a replacement or lets say an off the old shelf ITE that who knows if it still functions properly...I will put my money on the UL Listed and UL Classified breakers designed as replacements for renovations anyway...but again my opinion.

Just figured I would let you all know about them........nothing more fella...

Also remember.....how long is their warranty..I venture to say not a lifetime so chances are their warranty has expired in most all HI inspection cases....the new breaker that is UL Classified will have a NEW 5 year warranty and with the UL Standard put in place by Eaton on their classifieds I have no problem fighting that one in court.....UL says its fine and the courts have ruled that saying someone can't use a listed UL component which has met 3rd party testing for use in their panel by specific model number which eaton does....not allowing them would be a scare tactic by the manufacturer in my opinion to state otherwise...now in new construction a different story.......it is not a replacement situation we are dealing with and since on the video it made a statement to older installations...thats why it is important to know this.

In the end...is the question that for some reason one of the largest manufactures of breakers and a pioneer in the technology cant make a breaker that works in other panels...I hope thats not the case since they make many for other manufactures as well under private contract I am told..but I can say either way because I would have to kill for with that information....lol

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

James,

The problem is this...we would expect as much for Square D to make that statement. Why..because they loose money on the replacement breakers and they dont have a classified breaker as of yet....stands to reason.

It would be foolish to think Eaton...a company that is larger that Snyder I believe...anyway the two major powerhouses at best....and think that Eaton would even begin to venture into the "Classified" breaker world unless they knew exactly what they were doing and made it clear with UL.....so in the end....Square D can say what they wish....The Magnusun Moss Act has spoken on the issue of replacement parts.....Eaton's attorneys have already figured this one out....

IN the end....would you not prefer to have a NEW "classified" breaker in a panel as a replacement or lets say an off the old shelf ITE that who knows if it still functions properly...I will put my money on the UL Listed and UL Classified breakers designed as replacements for renovations anyway...but again my opinion.

Just figured I would let you all know about them........nothing more fella...

Also remember.....how long is their warranty..I venture to say not a lifetime so chances are their warranty has expired in most all HI inspection cases....the new breaker that is UL Classified will have a NEW 5 year warranty and with the UL Standard put in place by Eaton on their classifieds I have no problem fighting that one in court.....UL says its fine and the courts have ruled that saying someone can't use a listed UL component which has met 3rd party testing for use in their panel by specific model number which eaton does....not allowing them would be a scare tactic by the manufacturer in my opinion to state otherwise...now in new construction a different story.......it is not a replacement situation we are dealing with and since on the video it made a statement to older installations...thats why it is important to know this.

In the end...is the question that for some reason one of the largest manufactures of breakers and a pioneer in the technology cant make a breaker that works in other panels...I hope thats not the case since they make many for other manufactures as well under private contract I am told..but I can say either way because I would have to kill for with that information....lol

I hear you and I understand the Magnusun Moss Act as it applies strictly to warranties. If it were strictly "warranties" that we were addressing here, it might be appropriate to go with it in place of 110.3B.

To the unlicensed non-electrician such as myself, I cannot find a written source to tell me that a particular Cutler Hammer has been successfully tested and determined to fit into, specifically, a 1965 GE Service Panel....but I can read the inside of the GE Service Panel that tells me not to replace any GE breaker with one manufactured by someone other than GE.

110.3B tells me, in this case, that if a suitable (to the manufacturer and per his written instructions) GE replacement is no longer manufactured and available, we are going to need a new box. Right?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jbushart

To the unlicensed non-electrician such as myself, I cannot find a written source to tell me that a particular Cutler Hammer has been successfully tested and determined to fit into, specifically, a 1965 GE Service Panel....but I can read the inside of the GE Service Panel that tells me not to replace any GE breaker with one manufactured by someone other than GE.

110.3B tells me, in this case, that if a suitable (to the manufacturer and per his written instructions) GE replacement is no longer manufactured and available, we are going to need a new box. Right?

Classified Circuit breakers are provided with a listed of panel boards they may be used in.

Here is an example.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by dvalley

It may be a long video, but it's no big deal to view the long videos just as I did. This particular video was over two hours and it took me 4 different times to finally complete this video. I simply clicked on the video link and just moved the lower slide to the exact location I had left off on the last time I viewed it. It wasn't convenient waiting for the full video to upload completely, but it didn't take that long either.

Yep!

Instant jumping.
No downloading.
No buffering.
No waiting.

Go here. Click play. Check out how fast you can move around inside the 4.5 hour long video.

Amazing. Developed by Chris.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I hear you and I understand the Magnusun Moss Act as it applies strictly to warranties. If it were strictly "warranties" that we were addressing here, it might be appropriate to go with it in place of 110.3B.

To the unlicensed non-electrician such as myself, I cannot find a written source to tell me that a particular Cutler Hammer has been successfully tested and determined to fit into, specifically, a 1965 GE Service Panel....but I can read the inside of the GE Service Panel that tells me not to replace any GE breaker with one manufactured by someone other than GE.

110.3B tells me, in this case, that if a suitable (to the manufacturer and per his written instructions) GE replacement is no longer manufactured and available, we are going to need a new box. Right?

I respect that brother....lol......just remember that when a person buys a classified breaker they have the handout available as long as you ask for it...many supply houses just fill the orders and leave the handout in the breaker box...but if they keep it , it will show this listing.

Again i do have a list if you would ( or anyone ) would like it.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

I respect that brother....lol......just remember that when a person buys a classified breaker they have the handout available as long as you ask for it...many supply houses just fill the orders and leave the handout in the breaker box...but if they keep it , it will show this listing.

Again i do have a list if you would ( or anyone ) would like it.

Can you email it to me?

[Carl A. Brown]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

No trouble.
Great question.

Chris has developed something crazy cool for NACHI.TV -
When the viewer hits "play," the video can instantly jump to where the viewer left off previously.

This feature will be necessary for the future stucco and HVAC courses being developed.

Stucco or EIFS?

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by cbrown1

Stucco or EIFS?

Both, and everything in between.

We have two instructors:

One is Mr. Ron Huffman.
http://www.exterior-design-inst.com/huffman.html

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Nice work Ben, but watch out, we have an apprentic EIFS Inspector on Board.

Marcel

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Can you email it to me?

Better Yet......I got the info you can download from and read Eatons statement on their website...under the images of the classified breakers. You can download the compat. chart directly from the website I link you too.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...kers/index.htm