A Question About 4 Points

[James A. Levy]

Actually two questions:

Is Citizens the only insurance company that requires them?

Does anyone know if FL. is the only state that they are done in.

I am trying to gather information.

[Kevin Hunt]

No I believe all insurance companies in FL do them.

I am not sure if its only Florida, I believe I heard they were also done in South Carolina.. or at least one other state but don't quote me on that.

[Preston L. Halstead]

James, Citizens is not the only one.

I have never needed one in NJ on any of my own homes. It would be interesting due to the number of homes in a state like NJ that are older. Interesting thing is homeowners insurance is a lot cheaper in NJ then in FL

[James A. Levy]

I'm trying to compile some data to float by NJ carriers to see if it is feasible. Unless I have the premise wrong, the Insurance company dictates the need for the inspection....correct?

There are quite a few of public adjusters around, which might make it attractive for the ins. company to want this. Does that factor at all in FL?

I have even had calls for wind mits. at the Jersey Shore area. Mostly out of state carriers insuring NJ homes. Its something to consider.

[William H. Smith]

Yes, it is initiated by the insurance company.

[Michael J. Meeker]

Something to remember is that they suck

The clients hope that you do a poor job and whenever you find a problem the insurance companies normally make the client fix it which costs them money.

I you like happy clients stay out of that biz.

[Doug Edwards]

Like most "insurance inspections" the original intent for the four point inspection was pretty innocuous and consisted of one page. The purpose then was to find out if the four major systems in a home over 50 yrs old had ever been updated since construction. That is no longer the case; these are often now being required for homes only 30 yrs old, and being used as tool to for data mining for the insurance industry. Like most things, the more they fiddle with it, the worse it gets (like wind mitigation). Too many eager, hungry inspectors new to the business are doing these for chump change and the items required continues to grow as well. What often happens is the upgrades do not really end up helping the homeowners but rather causes their insurance to be cancelled immediately or as someone pointed out, new repairs or upgrades required. This is happens most often when the inspector (new or old) does not know what they are doing or volunteer information NOT requested or required. This can and does happen when the inspector wishes to garner favor with the insurance companies or agents. They know that homeowner will most likely never be their customer again but the insurance agent may well be a constant source of referrals.
One of the major issues I have always had with doing four points at the same time as the home inspections is these two inspections are often "at odds" with each other and the buyer getting to a smooth closing. The insurance companies have insisted the buyer make repairs before they will issue insurance on a home the buyer does not yet own. It often creates a hot mess of conflicts and the agents, buyers and realtor tries with all their might to drag the Home Inspector into the fray. They will try to make you the arbitrator and the one who decides what actions needs to be taken. In short, don't be so quick to wish this millstone be hung around yours and other State inspectors' necks. Keep in mind, today, many times the bank owns these homes and they are not going to put one thin dime into the property. I see this all the time now. I can honestly say half the homes I inspected this year, the buyers ended up walking away from for this reason. Too many needed upgrades, etc. and the sellers or banks refusing to put any money towards that to resolve it.

The other side of THAT coin; the buyer could and has ended up buying a house they could NOT get anyone to insure. These problems did not exist until the government got involved and began regulating the home buying process.

[Michael J. Meeker]

Originally Posted by dedwards

This is happens most often when the inspector (new or old) does not know what they are doing or volunteer information NOT requested or required. This can and does happen when the inspector wishes to garner favor with the insurance companies or agents. They know that homeowner will most likely never be their customer again but the insurance agent may well be a constant source of referrals.

Finally someone who gets it

[Bruce M. Graham]

Hey James, sorry I had to cut it short yesterday

[James A. Levy]

Originally Posted by bgraham

Hey James, sorry I had to cut it short yesterday

Huh?

[Eric C. Van De Ven]

Originally Posted by dedwards

Like most "insurance inspections" the original intent for the four point inspection was pretty innocuous and consisted of one page. The purpose then was to find out if the four major systems in a home over 50 yrs old had ever been updated since construction. That is no longer the case; these are often now being required for homes only 30 yrs old, and being used as tool to for data mining for the insurance industry. Like most things, the more they fiddle with it, the worse it gets (like wind mitigation). Too many eager, hungry inspectors new to the business are doing these for chump change and the items required continues to grow as well. What often happens is the upgrades do not really end up helping the homeowners but rather causes their insurance to be cancelled immediately or as someone pointed out, new repairs or upgrades required. This is happens most often when the inspector (new or old) does not know what they are doing or volunteer information NOT requested or required. This can and does happen when the inspector wishes to garner favor with the insurance companies or agents. They know that homeowner will most likely never be their customer again but the insurance agent may well be a constant source of referrals.
One of the major issues I have always had with doing four points at the same time as the home inspections is these two inspections are often "at odds" with each other and the buyer getting to a smooth closing. The insurance companies have insisted the buyer make repairs before they will issue insurance on a home the buyer does not yet own. It often creates a hot mess of conflicts and the agents, buyers and realtor tries with all their might to drag the Home Inspector into the fray. They will try to make you the arbitrator and the one who decides what actions needs to be taken. In short, don't be so quick to wish this millstone be hung around yours and other State inspectors' necks. Keep in mind, today, many times the bank owns these homes and they are not going to put one thin dime into the property. I see this all the time now. I can honestly say half the homes I inspected this year, the buyers ended up walking away from for this reason. Too many needed upgrades, etc. and the sellers or banks refusing to put any money towards that to resolve it.

The other side of THAT coin; the buyer could and has ended up buying a house they could NOT get anyone to insure. These problems did not exist until the government got involved and began regulating the home buying process.

The purpose of all of these inspections has nothing to do with anything with the exception of eliminating risk and/or increasing premiums.

The insurance companies are "cherry-picking" their clients. The four-point inspection is just another tool to do just that.

I said it in another post, since Citizens has already accepted the NACHI form, it is time to redesign it.

I will be sending all three of the forms (wind mit, 4-point, roof cert) to the OIR to be adopted as the official state forms.

We will see what happens.

[Lawrence W. Losciale]

Originally Posted by evandeven

I will be sending all three of the forms (wind mit, 4-point, roof cert) to the OIR to be adopted as the official state forms.

We will see what happens.

!? What forms are you sending, and in who's name?
They just redid the wind mit form. Are you going to ask them to adopt the NACHI 4 point or the "redesign" you spoke of? The citizens roof cert is simple enough are you going to support that one?

I'd like to know may be we can get behind what your proposing, or if not suggest changes so we could.

[Ed Bancroft]

I think you will find the OIR has nothing to do with the 4 point or the roof certs.
Wind mits only.

[Eric C. Van De Ven]

Originally Posted by llosciale

!? What forms are you sending, and in who's name?
They just redid the wind mit form. Are you going to ask them to adopt the NACHI 4 point or the "redesign" you spoke of? The citizens roof cert is simple enough are you going to support that one?

I'd like to know may be we can get behind what your proposing, or if not suggest changes so we could.

I think all of the forms should be standardized.
The roof cert says it needs two pictures, so, that should be part of the form.

The wind mit has a certain number of pictures required, fine. Make that part of the form as well. This way, we can take the pictures, they are on the form and we have complied and there should be no need for 1,000 more pictures of the same home to be taken.

The four point is ridiculous. And, I don't mean that as a slight to those that worked hard to create it. It just seems a little bit silly to me that there are three pages to determine if four systems of a home have been upgraded. I am quite sure that one page would suffice.

I think you will find the OIR has nothing to do with the 4 point or the roof certs.
Wind mits only.

They are insurance inspections. Who do you think should oversee them?

[Lawrence W. Losciale]

Eric,
I agree with standardizing but realize what that would take. Look at the process we went through for the latest wind mit form! May be minimum required on each form would work. Fpr example " a four point that states at least the age of or last update of each system must be accepted" or some thing along those lines. I've over simplified it here but you get the idea.