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  #1  
Old 6/30/14, 11:51 AM
John C. Fisher John C. Fisher is offline
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Default Roof Deck Attachment

I measured shiner length of 2" on 7/16" decking, with a fine spacing of approx 6". All looks good. However I found this many misses in more than one location. No credit?
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  #2  
Old 6/30/14, 12:03 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven's Avatar
Eric C. Van De Ven Eric C. Van De Ven is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfisher2 View Post
I measured shiner length of 2" on 7/16" decking, with a fine spacing of approx 6". All looks good. However I found this many misses in more than one location. No credit?
Quote:
C. Plywood/OSB roof sheathing with a minimum thickness of 7/16”inch attached to the roof truss/rafter (spaced a maximum of
24”inches o.c.) by 8d common nails spaced a maximum of 6” inches in the field. -OR- Dimensional lumber/Tongue & Groove
decking with a minimum of 2 nails per board (or 1 nail per board if each board is equal to or less than 6 inches in width). -ORAny
system of screws, nails, adhesives, other deck fastening system or truss/rafter spacing that is shown to have an equivalent
or greater resistance than 8d common nails spaced a maximum of 6 inches in the field or has a mean uplift resistance of at least
182 psf.
You tell me!

Unless they missed every truss like that, I mark C and use the pictures of the nails. Let the insurance guys figure it out.....



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  #3  
Old 6/30/14, 12:22 PM
John C. Fisher John C. Fisher is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Thanks. That was the worst-case picture and I did not want to not give them C, but it seems like 'the weakest link' philosophy could come into play. However, even tapping with a hammer on the underside would still not tell with certainty whether or not it had been re-nailed.
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  #4  
Old 6/30/14, 12:26 PM
Frank Rotte's Avatar
Frank Rotte Frank Rotte is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

And there could be another nail next to the shiner that hit the intended target. Maybe they just didn't pull the shiners.
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  #5  
Old 6/30/14, 12:45 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven's Avatar
Eric C. Van De Ven Eric C. Van De Ven is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by frotte View Post
And there could be another nail next to the shiner that hit the intended target. Maybe they just didn't pull the shiners.
Surely you jest...they missed about 20 nails in a 2 foot section the first go round...and somehow, had the wherewithal to re-nail the decking...they didn't know they missed....

Can someone please explain to me, what type of "skilled laborer" can't follow a pattern already laid down by the previously installed, code compliant nails?



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  #6  
Old 6/30/14, 12:54 PM
Bradley K. Toye Bradley K. Toye is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by evandeven View Post
Surely you jest...they missed about 20 nails in a 2 foot section the first go round...and somehow, had the wherewithal to re-nail the decking...they didn't know they missed....

Can someone please explain to me, what type of "skilled laborer" can't follow a pattern already laid down by the previously installed, code compliant nails?
Have you seen the guys that do the nailing for roofers?



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  #7  
Old 6/30/14, 1:09 PM
Frank Rotte's Avatar
Frank Rotte Frank Rotte is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by evandeven View Post
Surely you jest...they missed about 20 nails in a 2 foot section the first go round...and somehow, had the wherewithal to re-nail the decking...they didn't know they missed....

Can someone please explain to me, what type of "skilled laborer" can't follow a pattern already laid down by the previously installed, code compliant nails?
Are you suggesting that there is skilled labor on construction sites anymore? All the "nailer" knows how to do is nail. And apparently not very well. The days of skilled craftsmen is over.
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  #8  
Old 6/30/14, 2:31 PM
Michael J. Meeker, CMI's Avatar
Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfisher2 View Post
Thanks. That was the worst-case picture and I did not want to not give them C, but it seems like 'the weakest link' philosophy could come into play. However, even tapping with a hammer on the underside would still not tell with certainty whether or not it had been re-nailed.
Are you saying C is a bad thing?





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  #9  
Old 6/30/14, 3:27 PM
Bradley K. Toye Bradley K. Toye is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeeker View Post
Are you saying C is a bad thing?
No, he was saying he didn't want to remove the C credit just for a few missed nails, and I agree. You can see why those nails missed (nailing was installed on the sistered member and the member stopped short of the seam), and they may have been doubled up correctly. If you do find a roof with several (> 4' missed nail sections), then I would downgrade the selection on the 1802...no QA on the part of the roofer.



Brad K Toye
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FL Certified Home Inspector HI 391
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  #10  
Old 6/30/14, 3:46 PM
Michael J. Meeker, CMI's Avatar
Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Looks like I have misunderstood someone yet again....I guess I really am human. Damn...





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  #11  
Old 6/30/14, 4:32 PM
Dominic DAgostino Dominic DAgostino is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Fill out the form as written; no where does it state that missed sheathing nails (shiners) are disallowed.
Nowhere does it require us to deduct if there exposed nails.

I know the AHJ may require those shiners to be removed in some areas (they don't require that detail here, shiners are not a problem to the local AHJ's), but their presence doesn't mean anything on the form, as it's written.

And yes, without destructive testing, they may have re-nailed right next to the missed nails. Can anyone know for sure?

Of course not.

YMMV.

Dom.



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  #12  
Old 6/30/14, 5:29 PM
Bradley K. Toye Bradley K. Toye is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

The "intent" of the 1802 is to document the typical nailing schedule of the roof deck. It is never a perfect world in construction and nails WILL miss their intended target sometimes. However, when a re-nailing is so sloppy that a significant number of decking nails are observed as "air nails", a judgement call is needed. I do those judgement calls on a regular basis.



Brad K Toye
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  #13  
Old 6/30/14, 6:44 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven's Avatar
Eric C. Van De Ven Eric C. Van De Ven is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddagostino View Post
Fill out the form as written; no where does it state that missed sheathing nails (shiners) are disallowed.
Nowhere does it require us to deduct if there exposed nails.

I know the AHJ may require those shiners to be removed in some areas (they don't require that detail here, shiners are not a problem to the local AHJ's), but their presence doesn't mean anything on the form, as it's written.

And yes, without destructive testing, they may have re-nailed right next to the missed nails. Can anyone know for sure?

Of course not.

YMMV.

Dom.
Yes, it does.

C. Plywood/OSB roof sheathing with a minimum thickness of 7/16”inch attached to the roof truss/rafter (spaced a maximum of
24”inches o.c.) by 8d common nails spaced a maximum of 6” inches in the field
. -OR- Dimensional lumber/Tongue & Groove
decking with a minimum of 2 nails per board (or 1 nail per board if each board is equal to or less than 6 inches in width). -ORAny
system of screws, nails, adhesives, other deck fastening system or truss/rafter spacing that is shown to have an equivalent
or greater resistance than 8d common nails spaced a maximum of 6 inches in the field or has a mean uplift resistance of at least
182 psf.

From InterNACHI Inspection Forum - Reply to Topic http://www.nachi.org/forum/newreply....#ixzz36A2DCkr2

If the nails missed, then you have no way of proving that it was renailed, therefore, it does not comply with the above. It doesn't say the following:

Plywood/OSB roof sheathing with a minimum thickness of 7/16”inch with nails spread out anywhere the installer chose, even if they are nowhere near the truss, (spaced a maximum of
24”inches o.c.) by 8d common nails spaced a maximum of 6” inches in the field
.

If there are one or two sections like that, I don't get concerned. If they missed everywhere, then it reverts to the next weakest rating until I can get visible proof....



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  #14  
Old 6/30/14, 7:33 PM
Dominic DAgostino Dominic DAgostino is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by evandeven View Post
Yes, it does.

If the nails missed, then you have no way of proving that it was renailed,
That's exactly my point. You have no way to prove or disprove either conclusion.

However,
If the deck was re-nailed, then exposed nails would be a huge clue. Not too hard to figure out. Exposed 8D nails are just that: 8D nails.

Around here, missed nailed mean nothing. Doesn't matter if there are 177 shiners in a row. Re-nailed is all about what they used.

Dom.



Dominic D'Agostino
Home Pride Inspection Services, Inc.
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  #15  
Old 6/30/14, 8:07 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven's Avatar
Eric C. Van De Ven Eric C. Van De Ven is offline
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Default Re: Roof Deck Attachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddagostino View Post
That's exactly my point. You have no way to prove or disprove either conclusion.

However,
If the deck was re-nailed, then exposed nails would be a huge clue. Not too hard to figure out. Exposed 8D nails are just that: 8D nails.

Around here, missed nailed mean nothing. Doesn't matter if there are 177 shiners in a row. Re-nailed is all about what they used.

Dom.
No, they are improperly installed nails.

I am still waiting for Andrew 2.0. Then we will see who has to pay for improperly installed roofs.

Oh, and the missed nails mattered to this guy..to the tune of $40,000.00.
http://magnuminspections.com/PDF/Roof_sample_2012.pdf

And there are several others.........and those are just the ones I inspected.


And one other thing, let's assume that the installer knew he missed and installed more nails. In the OPs picture, there are about 17 nails in a very small space. Who knows what the original pattern was and then you can add in the renailed nails. So, let's say there are roughly 60 nails in a 20 x 2 inch area of decking. How strong is that?

I had discussed this with one code official and his opinion was that at some point, there will not be enough decking left with all the holes in it, to be worth anything as far as holding power in a "wind event". There was some talk that after a certain number of reroofs, the decking may need to be replaced because there would be no "new" material to nail.

I asked John this question about 2 years ago, and his answer, as I recall, was in extreme cases where the roofer missed wildly, that A or B would be marked with an explanation with regards to the missed nails. I also had a similar discussion with the head of Citizens and his reply was, "it isn't a code inspection". When I asked him if they would cover a roof installed in this manner should it go bye by during a storm, he said "It would be a case by case situation".



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