Air Quality

Originally Posted By: kmoore
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I had an unusual request this A.M. I had a lady call wanting to know if I could test her house for air quality. She has allergies for years but in the last six months they have been worse. She had a duct cleaning service clean her air ducts. She feels her allergies are worse after the ducts were cleaned. She was not happy with the job she got. She is wondering if the house is not well built and is getting a lot of dust from attic, etc… Has anybody ran across a client wanting the house air tested for dust? If so, can you tell me how to perform this test. Also, does anyone have any ideas for potential concerns that may be causing excessive dust in home?


Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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You need mold and air quality training before you should perform these tests.



Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC


Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

Originally Posted By: kmoore
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Kevin,


I have been trained and certified in mold sampling. I don't have any training for air quality. I would greatly appreciate any info or resources you may have on this topic. I didn't know if you can use the same air sampling procedures and equipment as for mold and send the canisters in to a lab for analysis just like you do for mold. If it takes additional training or equipment it may not be worth pursueing. If so, who would you refer this lady to to have an air quality test performed.


Thanks,


Kevin


Originally Posted By: away
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Kevin,


You may want to start your research with your state health department, or whatever your state has that governs indoor air quality. Maybe check the phone book for companies that do IAQ for commercial buildings? They may be able to point you in the right direction at least.

For air quality stuff, as opposed to just radon or mold sampling, you may have to have an industrial hygenist, biology, or chemistry type education, and/or comparable experience. Lots more stuff to consider for IAQ than just radon and mold.

I am basing some of this on what TX does, your mileage will vary based on your state.

Hope that helps.


--
Andrew Way
Keystone Residential Inspection Services PLLC
817.441.9598
www.keystoneinspections.com

Originally Posted By: rwand
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It wouldn’t hurt to ask her a few questions over the phone. Such things as …


1. Any pets in the house. Cat dander is very bad.
2. Plants?
3. Storage of paints, aerosols, air freshners, cleaning products will off gas.
4. How were the ducts cleaned there are different methods. Did the duct cleaning company spray anything in the duct work?
5. Has she changed the filter in the furnace post duct cleaning?
6. There are many man made products that can bring on a host of symptoms and conditions.
7. Just by talking to your client you maybe able to garner much useful info!
8. Even site drainage can play a part at improving indoor air quality.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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best reply. buy an “ionic Breaze” electric air purifier. the cost is about the same a one full house air quality test, last alot longer and the air test service may not be profitable considering the equipment cost. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: rwand
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Sorry but my feeling is everyone is hyped up on testing. Forget testing! You have to find the problem, and deal with the conditions that are causing it. If you can see the mold the problem has been there a long time. What is testing going to do for your client, other than inform them they have a problem? You already know there is a problem that is why they call inspectors. If there is black mold there is a moisture problem. Find the moisture source in my opinion and get rid of the contaminated drywall and prevent further moisture intrusion. I think spending money on all this testing is time consuming and wasteful. You can be just as effective by being a good detective and using your inspection skills you already pocess. You have the tools in your heads already. They cost nothing to utilize!


Air filters are great but they can't fix the problem only mask a problem and reduce the conditions. Just my thinking on the subject fwiw. No offence intended just being helpful the best way I know.

Can you tell there is nothing on TV to watch tonight? I would rather be helping you fine folks. I enjoy helping. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif) ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Cheers
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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kmoore wrote:
I had an unusual request this A.M. I had a lady call wanting to know if I could test her house for air quality. She has allergies for years but in the last six months they have been worse. She had a duct cleaning service clean her air ducts. She feels her allergies are worse after the ducts were cleaned. She was not happy with the job she got. She is wondering if the house is not well built and is getting a lot of dust from attic, etc.. Has anybody ran across a client wanting the house air tested for dust? If so, can you tell me how to perform this test. Also, does anyone have any ideas for potential concerns that may be causing excessive dust in home?

I think Raymond might be correct .
The people who clean the ducts spray in a chemical.
I have heard of this before .
I would be careful in advising some one to get an electronic air cleaner.
I have also heard they could be worse with one of these .


--
Roy Cooke Sr.

http://Royshomeinspection.com

Originally Posted By: rwand
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Has anyone heard of negative Ion generators? They are not the same as electronic percipator air cleaners, not ultraviolet and not ozone generators. You get negative ions created when you have waterfalls, showers, rain storms, etc. they will pull dirt out of air. Very effective from what I know but I am willing to listen to other advice on them too.


Cheers
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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rcooke wrote:
The people who clean the ducts spray in a chemical.
I have heard of this before .
I would be careful in advising some one to get an electronic air cleaner.
I have also heard they could be worse with one of these .



worse? how. i've read all good reviews on them. removes paint fumes, and pet oders. and it's not ozone either. not enough power. just static.


Originally Posted By: rschuemann
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Jay Moge wrote:
rcooke wrote:
The people who clean the ducts spray in a chemical.
I have heard of this before .
I would be careful in advising some one to get an electronic air cleaner.
I have also heard they could be worse with one of these .



worse? how. i've read all good reviews on them. removes paint fumes, and pet oders. and it's not ozone either. not enough power. just static.


From experience:

Any source of smoke will be deposited on every surface within 3' of an Ionic Breeze. Tobacco, incense, candles & cooking. Toward the end of my wife's battle with cancer she got into the aromatherapy thing & we had Ionic Breezes all over. It's going to take a small fortune in Kilz around where the Ionic Breezes sat. What didn't stick to the plates stuck to everything around it.

FWIW


Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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Ronald: I’ve never owned one so I didn’t know that. it makes sence though, that the static charge would “wander” to all surounding surfaces. It’s good to hear first hand about things. thanx. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
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Mr. Moore:


As an expert in the field of IAQ issues, I?m going to have to respectfully disagree with most of the responses and approaches suggested by your colleagues (with the exception of Mr. Andrew Way). So I will just address your initiating post.

It is to be expected that her allergy symptoms increased after the duct were cleaned ? this is normal and expected since the air in an occupied space typically gets worse, not better, after duct cleaning. (For more information see my page on duct cleaning discussion at www.forensic-applications.com/moulds/ducts.html )

We do quite a bit of indoor air testing, however, it is almost NEVER testing for what the client asks for ?since the client almost NEVER has a proper idea of what to test for. That?s why we are the experts, and they call us. The homeowner?s perception of their problem, and the actual problem (and the indicia speaking to the issue of the problem) are usually vastly different. (In a case this summer, although our client was hoping to sue the home builder for the ill health of their children, our work demonstrated that it was their own life style practices that were degrading the indoor environment and responsible to the stmptomology).

I would strongly recommend that your client contact an industrial hygiene firm in her area that has competency in performing real IAQ assessments ? not a firm that just willy-nilly runs around collecting samples. You may be interested in the information on my IAQ page: www.forensic-applications.com/iaq/iaq.html

Unless one has established expertise in the area of IAQ, I would caution performing work in that area, since there are folks like me who are hired to dismantle and discredit the poor work of such consultants in court. I just completed such an IAQ project in the last couple of weeks wherein the consultants (environmental engineers), who had no real expertise in IAQ, will be paying out several hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages for getting involved in IAQ issues when thy should have stuck to their area of expertise.

Just my thoughts? and you are free to ignore them... (I could use the work).

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG



Originally Posted By: rwand1
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Do you test/inspect for non mould type issues with regard to indoor air? Do you test for chemical off gassing from man made manufactured goods, and stored chemicals people keep in their homes. Everything from paints, solvents, dry cleaning, smoke, cosmetics, et cetera?


What if moulds aren't the issue, there are many people who show no symptoms because of specific moulds, but some are predisposed. How do you go about reporting on non mould issues?

By the way you links don't work, maybe your site is down?

Thank you.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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Kevin, politley refuse the work. Allergies are funny things. Tell her to go to a Doctor and to find out what she is allergic to. If you do not know what is causing the allergies how can you reccomend treatment.



“I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused”-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: rwand1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



A interesting read from a Canadian Court dealing with SBS.


http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/2005/2005onsc14354.html

It gets interesting at paragraph 24.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: rwand1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Kevin


In relation to your specific question as to what would cause excessive dust?

Location of house in proximity to roads, industrial area, farming activities.
Wind direction.
House construction, lack of vapour or wind barrier in construction.
Poor filtration in regards to furnace performance.
Indoor materials.
Hobbys, such as wood working.
Poor plaster, stucco type finnishes will shed fine dust.
New housing is usually filled with dust.
Poor housekeeping.

Those are only a few which I can think of that could be the cause of the dust.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hello Mr. Wand:


Thank you for your reply.

"Do you test/inspect for non mould type issues with regard to indoor air? "
Yes. Out of the more than ten thousand samples that I have collected over the last 27 years, probably less than about 15% were for mould.

Do you test for chemical off gassing from man made manufactured goods, and stored chemicals people keep in their homes."
I have done, yes; I don?t do it for every project. In some cases, I have had to actually build the test chambers and the monitoring equipment for the task. However, many IEQ projects (referred to Home Inspectors on this board as IAQ projects) require no sampling what ever. Indeed, some of my trickiest cases, (involving building related illnesses in hospitals and colleges) exclusively required nothing more than exercising fundamental epidemiology to solve the problems.

Everything from paints, solvents, dry cleaning, smoke, cosmetics, et cetera?
And lasers, and ionizing radiation, and acid gases, and controlled substances, and asbestos, and vibrations, and ultrafine particles, and epitopes, and noise, and ergonomics, and occasionally some really weird stuff... I am an industrial hygienist and we call it Indoor Environmental Quality for a reason (air is just one factor)- Trust me, if you can think of it and it can constitute an hazard, odds are I have not only sampled for it, but also, for many contaminants, I have also been the chemical analyst performing the analytical chemistry in the lab (except for viruses and pesticides, although I have collected a few hundred samples for pesticides, I have never actually analyzed pesticides, and - thank heavens, I have never had to assess viral exposures).

What if moulds aren't the issue,
I would say that moulds are almost never the issue. I would estimate that of the thousand plus IEQ projects with which I have been involved, mould was responsible for the illnesses in only about three (in spite of the fact that in about 30% of the IEQ projects, mould was originally blamed by the occupants).

How do you go about reporting on non mould issues?
By applying standard, Industrial Hygienist practice. For a general "beginner's guide" to industrial hygiene, pick up a copy of "Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology" and read through that, it's not inclusive, but it will give you a better idea of my approach.

By the way you links don't work, maybe your site is down?
Thanks. I just clicked on each of the above links and they seemed to work fine. I don?t know anything about computers. I will inform my computer guy. Thanks again.

Cheers!

Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

?You too can be an Industrial Hygienist in two easy lessons; each lasting only ten years.?

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG



Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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Ms Caoimh?n you perform epidemiology but do not look for viruses?



“I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused”-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mr. Kelly:


Yes ? epidemiology can be an integral part of industrial hygiene. So too can viral exposures, I just haven?t taken any projects requiring viral assessments; usually because I talk the client out of the need.

In fact, epidemiology is a big part of IEQ (IAQ), and is one of the assessment tools I use prior to determining if sampling is even appropriate (harkening back to Mr. Rand?s questions to me).

For example ? in a big case involving a college, several instructors and employees became concerned about the prevalence of cancer among the staff. Essentially, employees from one area of the college began to compare notes and realized that many of them had cancer. The group naturally concluded that since they were near the chemistry labs, and microlabs, etc, they were being exposed to airborne carcinogens (that word again?) that was resulting in their cancer. My task, as defined by the college, was to determine what was in the air that was causing the cancers. Remember, I mentioned that I almost never end up testing what the client asks for? Case in point.

I began the ?IAQ? assessment by interviewing the college staff, and, in particular, the ?cases? (those with cancer). I segregated the cancers by type. I then did some mathematical jiggery-pokery (epidemiological biostatistics) and found that the prevalence of cancer in the facility was actually significantly lower (or, at worst, the same) as would be expected for any given facility with the same work population from the same area. That is, I addressed the ?IAQ? problem by first addressing the true problem ?which was not the air but the perceived (and erroneous) premise that the prevalence of cancer among the staff was higher than normal.

Having shown the staff that there was no elevated prevalence of cancer in the facility, the IAQ problem went away without a single air sample needed. Naturally, my report was not well received by some of the cases who cried ?foul? and submitted my report to the State epidemiologist for external review. However, following her confirmatory technical review, the hold-outs reluctantly agreed to withdraw their threats of law suits against the college (two employees quit claiming the whole thing was a conspiracy and I was an evil person for "participating in their death"; c?est la vie.) However, the IAQ problem went away with those who left.

As far as viruses go ? they scare the willies out of me. I believe the next major kill-off of humans (truly major; numbering in the millions) will come from a simple virus out of Asia; probably a 'flu virus. However, I am particularly fascinated by the temperate lysogenic phages, and transposable element phages and find their insidious nature particularly disturbing. (Daughter reads over my shoulder? ?Chill out Dad??) ? ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)
But that?s just me and my old fashioned imagination?

Cheers!
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG