Applied Science TRADEMARKING everything inspection related!

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Applied Science TRADEMARKING everything inspection related!

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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Oct 12, 2005 7:38 PM       Post Subject:
Quote:
From: "Gerry Quackenbush" <gerry@gtainspections.com>

I am very upset & offended by his ignorant & derogatory remarks regarding First Nations people made on the NACHI forum.
Unfortunately NACHI has closed it's forum to public postings & I cannot reply. I hope he shows up at the Falls so I can meet with him personally.


Quote:
I hope he shows up at the Falls so I can meet with him personally.


I sincerely hope that comment was not made in anger, anymore than my comment was made in jest about inspecting tipi's? I trust it is not, and nor were my comments made in anger or with bias. If you feel they were derogatory I am sorry they were not meant to be misconstrued into disrespectful words.

It seems Mr. Quackenbush doesn't have any more respect for freedom of speech anymore than I supposedly do for FN. I find it troubling that Mr. Quackenbush if truly familiar with what has transpired on the Canuck list and the Cafe and here on the Nachi board he would condone the statements made by two individuals who supposely represent the best of the home inspection profession. Surely Mr. Quackenbush would show no bias in his subjective review of matters that restrict through intimidation the right to dissemination of taxpayers funded studies, not to mention members dues in this project? Surely he would have a problem with intimidation and veiled threats that would hinder a taxpayer and a members rights to access and receive information that is suppose to be fair and accessible? Is Mr. Quackenbush going to guarantee my rights? Sure doesn't appear to be so on the surface? Does Mr. Quackenbush believe in the denial of free speech in being able to protect someone from totally false and misleading statements? I hope not. Does Mr. Quackenbush think that freedom of association should be ignored as guaranteed in the charter? Does Mr. Quackenbush think that as taxpayers I and others do not have a right to question FN and their programs and lack of ettiquet in timely replies?

Mr. Quackenbush if you feel you would like to discuss your issues and my concerns please call me at 519-942-9496. I would appreciate the opportunity to have a friendly discussion. Unfortunately I won't be going to the Conference unless Mr. Fontana supplies an RCMP officer to ensure my safety.

Mr. Quackenbush you can no longer reply here because you asked to be removed back in April of this year, now you complain you can't post. Make up your mind please!

--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

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Robert Francis

Shamrock Home Inspections, Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 196
User: rfrancis
Posted: Oct 12, 2005 8:07 PM       Post Subject:
Its the same old "Do as I say not as I do" mentally, which is one of the many reasons why so many are leaving the "other place" and joining NACHI.

Self serving interests are trying to prevail over here now. Take a deep look at the nay sayers and ask what is the connection!!!!!! You will be surprised.

Its ok to knock and back stab or ignore on their forum, but a different picture when its not controlled by those that want control and we are seen as a threat to the "other place".

Bits and pieces of info to show how wonderful some are, Raymond has provide more information then others and when he does "OH he is a bad boy, we were suppose to control that".

Raymond keep on posting we need to know.

--
Bob Francis
Shamrock Home Inspections Inc
Toronto, Ontario Canada

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Larry Ewens

All Certified Inspection Service Systems
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 840
User: lewens
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 9:24 AM       Post Subject:
Claude
THe dominance of NACHI in North America is a reality you are going to have to live with. It is not a threat it is a reality.

--
Just my usual 12.5 cents

From The Great White North Eh?
NACHI-CAN
www.aciss-brant.com
www.certifiedadulttrainingservices.com/

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Claude Lawrenson

Ontario Home Inspections Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 684
User: clawrenson
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 11:56 AM       Post Subject:
Larry - personally, I don't have a problem with NACHI. Most comments mainly seem to be a reflex reaction to "some" of the "other organizations" comments that are posted.

With that, I do however feel and share the same sentiment as John Bowman's earlier comments. - Its simple common sense and good advice and an easy solution.
Quote:
Once again, I really wish you guys would take your backroom chat about other organizations somewhere else. It's an old subject that has been beaten to death all ready.
It really that simple. I would rather deal with constructivism rather than destruction. So I certainly welcome a movement forward and away from such commentaries.

--
Ontario Home Inspections Inc.

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Nick Gromicko
Founder
NACHI Member: Staff
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 7876
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 11:46 PM       Post Subject:

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.

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Vern Mitchinson

Home Choice Inspections Ltd.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 48
User: vmitchinson
Posted: Dec 2, 2005 5:39 PM       Post Subject:
Hopefully the election results will eliminate fontana etc. and some new blood will bring some new ideas etc. eusa_wall.gif

I know but hope springs eternal. eusa_dance.gif
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Claude Lawrenson

Ontario Home Inspections Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 684
User: clawrenson
Posted: Dec 2, 2005 8:34 PM       Post Subject:
Personally I think the trademarking of the CMI is a step in the right direction for NACHI both in the U.S. and Canada. But I again feel "personally" there is much more work ahead to build a stronger case for comparison - which means more stringent and much higher standards.

I also commend NACHI for trying to offer free education, but it brings certain questions from others of it perceived value. Even the role of the college system in offering home inspection training and building code training cannot be "erased" overnight without due consideration of the titles, mandates and powers vested in these institutions by the government. So there will always be differences in values. This also brings to mind the issue of verification of legitimacy. At a minimum training providers must demonstrate that they are legitimate, can demonstrate adequate process for maintaining instruction standards and maintain adequate processes for verifying the competence of trainees.

Provincial training agencies such as post secondary colleges in Canada are accredited and approved by a provincial education ministry. This constitutes "prima facie" evidence of legitimacy. International schools or sources of education become much trickier, and is dealt with on a case by case benchmarking against the Canadian Standards.

This is only one of the major points - as such, forming the tip of the iceberg regarding certification and accreditation. There are many more checkpoints to verify the issue of legitimacy.

As far as your comments about Mr. Fontana and his future - only time will tell. Besides the issue is much more complex than just Mr. Fontana. No matter who is in power the forces to be have already positioned themself well enough to protect their future, and move their initiative forward. Even as such the impact on the provincial colleges is likely to be minimal at best!
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 7:15 AM       Post Subject:
Can you say Licensing? That is the only way anyone can and will have any faith in anything done in Ontario. Self regulation does not work, hasn't worked in over 10 years.

The National Initative will not work without sufficient numbers to make it work.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Claude Lawrenson

Ontario Home Inspections Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 684
User: clawrenson
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 9:16 AM       Post Subject:
Be careful what you ask for because it's coming, and some may not like what it looks like. Both B.C. and Quebec are on the brink of "right to practice" legislation. Than the real house cleaning and reality of credibled validated certification will take hold. If the government is involved - one must also consider ALL stakeholders including the influence of groups such as architects, engineers, and other professional groups, and not to exclude the influence of realtors. Licensing does not necessarily promise fairness or equity to one and all.

Once these pass - watch out - the rest of the larger provinces will likely follow suit.
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Roy Cooke

Roys Home Inspection
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 1987
User: rcooke
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 10:08 AM       Post Subject:
clawrenson wrote:
Be careful what you ask for because it's coming, and some may not like what it looks like. Both B.C. and Quebec are on the brink of "right to practice" legislation. Than the real house cleaning and reality of credibled validated certification will take hold. If the government is involved - one must also consider ALL stakeholders including the influence of groups such as architects, engineers, and other professional groups, and not to exclude the influence of realtors. Licensing does not necessarily promise fairness or equity to one and all.

Once these pass - watch out - the rest of the larger provinces will likely follow suit.


Good or bad at least we would all be on the same playing field.

This from what I have seen in the past has to be better then what we have now .
Roy sr.
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 10:46 AM       Post Subject:
Quote:
Be careful what you ask for because it's coming, and some may not like what it looks like. Both B.C. and Quebec are on the brink of "right to practice" legislation. Than the real house cleaning and reality of credibled validated certification will take hold. If the government is involved - one must also consider ALL stakeholders including the influence of groups such as architects, engineers, and other professional groups, and not to exclude the influence of realtors. Licensing does not necessarily promise fairness or equity to one and all.

Once these pass - watch out - the rest of the larger provinces will likely follow suit.


Licensing cannot be any worse than what is occuring in OAHI at this point in time. I would welcome licensing based on all inspectors input. I do not believe OAHI is in any position currently to dictate terms to the rest of us, nor is there any reason to fear Certification a la CAHPI because licensing in Ontario would seem to make that irrelevent.

Licensing will ensure a level playing field, accountability, and fairness. Any licensing will have to most likely include an appointee from the Realestate community along with home inspectors. There is no problem with this in my opinion and RECO (Realestate Council of Ontario) already has a home inspector on the Council. His name is Robert Dunlop of Carson Dunlop. So we having nothing to fear by licensing. Bring it on! The sooner the better.

The sooner OAHI is reined in the better. There is a lengthy list of non complaince with self regulation.

Cheers,
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Claude Lawrenson

Ontario Home Inspections Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 684
User: clawrenson
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 2:14 PM       Post Subject:
The argument in favour of licensing always has been that it protects the public from incompetents, impostors and quacks. The main outcome of licensing, however, is simply to restrict entry and reduce competition in the licensed occupation. The issues of licensure of an occupation are very complicated and rest on two factors: 1) a person?s fundamental right to engage in his or her chosen occupation; and 2) protection of the health, welfare and safety of the public. Interestingly enough the driving force behind a legislature to take action to license an occupation is the health, welfare, and safety of the public; not protection from political differences over association politics.

The right of every person to engage in any lawful profession, trade or occupation of their choice is clearly protected; however, where the unregulated practice of the occupation can harm or endanger the health, safety or welfare of the public, the rules can be changed. This generally happens when the real potential for harm is recognizable and not remote or dependent upon questionable arguments, or where the public is not effectively protected by other means, such as suing an inspector.

Often licensing allows one to demonstrate minimal proficiency for entry into the occupation, with such minimal competency defined legislatively. Because the license is the same thing as a permission to gain employment in a certain occupation, there is tremendous pressure to develop the licensing program to address or define the lowest level of professional competence, hence the differences recognized between the associations.

Licensing I believe is not a bad idea. In some respects it will weed out the wannabes' as well as put the profession on a level playing field. But fairly on the other side most see the current arrangement of the home inspection trade associations to be the reasonable alternative. Albeit the system is not perfect, and all have their faults, its better than nothing, and likely better than having licensing that is likely to be influenced by far too many non-home inspectors. However if we focus on not just the value perceived, but realize the importance of belonging ? than we are starting to realize that sooner or later credibility becomes a paramount issue in sustaining longevity of the association and its members. In my experience and research, licensing agencies are usually more zealous in prosecuting unlicensed practitioners than in disciplining licensees.

Hopefully we can agree that most every association seems to be a self-serving clubs that successfully enlist powers to guarantee their members' certain socioeconomic advantages. Than again some may seem more advantaged. So why would licensing be any different? In my opinion, licensure grants a practitioner the legal right to work in his or her chosen occupation, by law and restricts this right to only those persons who hold a license, but will not stop the same old claims of partisan politics.

Perhaps reviewing past posts on this forum, will shed other opinions that licensing is not a guaranteed slam-dunk to solve these issues you have noted. https://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=14912&highlight=licensing
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 4:43 PM       Post Subject:
The current state of affairs is not protecting the public. Self regulation by OAHI has not been legislated to protect the public interests, the self regulation has very little credence or weight. It is just a private members bill which does not have the credibility that regulates Architects or Engineers.

The set up of the council is the assurance that members are treated fairly because their is independent oversight by non home inspectors. It also removes the special interests and leaders who haven't got a clue of their duty.

Lets get rid of all the inspection schools that are flourishing and accepting only college educated home inspectors.

Licensing is music to my ears.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 5:04 PM       Post Subject:
Is the OAHI or for that matter CAHPI a public authority?

(a) Defining the test

[47]A three-part test has been adopted in English cases for determining whether a body is a public authority, particularly in the context of short statutory limitation periods sheltering public authorities from liability. The elements of this test were described as follows in a subparagraph 9(1)(n)(iii) case, Registrar of Trade Marks v. Canadian Olympic Association, supra, at page 699:

(a) there must be a duty to the public;
(b) there must be a significant degree of governmental control; and
(c) any profit earned must be for the benefit of the public and not for private benefit.

However, the Court also said, supra, at page 699, that the law in Canada on this issue was unsettled. Thus, it was unclear whether the definition of a public authority includes the first criterion, that is, that it owes legally enforceable duties to the public. More important, the Court stated, supra, at page 700, that the meaning of public authority "may vary according to statutory context" and that, at page 703:

. . .the necessity for finding such obligations or duties to the public is not necessarily determinative of whether or not the public body is a "public authority" as that term is used in the context of the Act here under review.

Fwiw.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Roy Cooke

Roys Home Inspection
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 1987
User: rcooke
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 6:33 PM       Post Subject:
clawrenson wrote:
The argument in favour of licensing always has been that it protects the public from incompetents, impostors and quacks. The main outcome of licensing, however, is simply to restrict entry and reduce competition in the licensed occupation. The issues of licensure of an occupation are very complicated and rest on two factors: 1) a person?s fundamental right to engage in his or her chosen occupation; and 2) protection of the health, welfare and safety of the public. Interestingly enough the driving force behind a legislature to take action to license an occupation is the health, welfare, and safety of the public; not protection from political differences over association politics.
Perhaps reviewing past posts on this forum, will shed other opinions that licensing is not a guaranteed slam-dunk to solve these issues you have noted. https://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=14912&highlight=licensing


Thanks for sending me back to those posts.
It shows me why you and CAHPI/OAHI are so against licensing.
It also shows me why the OAHI directors do not have time to look after questions from their members. They spend all their time on CHIBO11.

If what nick said earlier is true ( Figures show he is correct ) then Licensing could be the best thing for us Canadians.

Roy Sr
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: Aug 19, 2005 12:02 AM Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Licensing hurts the profession by roughly tripling the number of inspectors in the state where licensing is adopted. Yes, you heard right... every time a state adopts licensing the number of inspectors multiplies by 3. Licensing sets such a bare minimum standard (for example, the dumb NHIE which everyone has the answers to) that everyone can get a license... and everyone does. The new licensed list wipes out the market share of the existing inspectors who have established themselves and their reputations over the years. For example: Recently ASHI Tampa figured this out for themselves and fought licensing in FL.

Licensing helps NACHI of course for the same reason, that being that it triples the number of inspectors. Licensing also helps NACHI because it damn near destroys the do-nothing associations in competition with NACHI. ASHI for instance hangs on tooth and nail to the only benefit it offers its members... a credential. ( I might be wrong, I think ASHI offers a discount on a magazine too ) Anyway, once government takes that purpose away from the do-nothing associations and creates their own credential (a license)... only associations (like NACHI) that offer their members a gazillion other benefits that the government doesn't offer, and will never offer, (marketing and support for instance) survive. Texas, which has had licensing for years is a perfect example. In Texas every inspector's report is legislated to be nearly identical. The only thing that distinguishes one licensed inspector from another is support and marketing power... which is why all the NACHI members in Texas kick a$%.

Any of the do-nothing but offer a credential associations that argue FOR licensing and succeed... soon find themselves with 3 lone members sitting at a bar wondering what the hell went wrong.
--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 8:02 PM       Post Subject:
I think licensing would be a good idea. Particularly if we can steer the process. Are we not in control of our own destiny? We should be dictating terms for our mutual benefits in regards to licensing.

Fwiw I have letter from The Honourabe Jim Watson Minister of Consumer and Business Services and the Ontario Government has no plan for licensing. I don't know about the new Minister Gerry Phillips because I haven't had a reply yet on that matter. He may have different plans. Mr. Phillips office has been helpful thus far on other matters I have taken up with him.

Cheers.
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Claude Lawrenson

Ontario Home Inspections Inc.
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 684
User: clawrenson
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 8:22 PM       Post Subject:
For clarification (Roy) - personally I am not against licensing. It depends under what terms, just like the terms that some relate from the CHIBO II Project Report.

My point being despite what some seem to believe - it's not that much different than what we currently already have in the marketplace. If anything it will force those outside of associations to join in the process, or close up shop; that is assuming the licensing model includes a named association or its plural derivative. That same growth potential is also a potential with or without licensing. Until licensing is on our doorsteps, we all need to be diligent about those who put such a suggestion forward and their ulterior motives.

One only read other posts by Nick and others again here on this forum to realize licensing is not always what it seems to be. In fairness it works for some and does not work for others. If there are inspectors out there that believe input and outside influence is not a factor to contend with in licensing, than they are shortchanging the reality of licensing expereiences of the past. Remember also licensing goes hand-in-hand with - what an inspector must do. Not always a freedom of choice of what inspectors feel that they can do or want to do!

Quote:
"Licensing is not a bad thing if it is done correctly and for the right reason. It creates more problems than it solves in the states that have applied it, according to most published reports."

"What it did in Texas was make sure inspecting wasn't done by hairdressers. But the real benefit has been that virtually all resale homes are inspected. Licencing made home inspections legitimate and agents universally recommend that buyers get the home inspected. Of course this says nothing about the kind of inspection the agent wants; that varies all over the map."

"....there will be special interests that try to carve out pieces of it for their own cause" "These interests can be as diverse as already licensed architects, engineers, appraisers, REALTORS", code officials and others, as well as semi-related tradespeople who want to perform home inspections in some manner. "

"Even in well populated states, there are so few home inspectors compared to most other regulated professions - that once HI's get licensed it seems that almost every other group with more people and more political clout, and more money (which is just about everyone - builders, realtors, other trades, etc) start trying to change the laws."

"the catalyst behind licensing laws is NOT the consumer but certain factions within the home inspection industry who feel that licensing will help to limit competition and neutralize the differences between inspectors who can market themselves and those who cannot."

What licensing does depends entirely on how the law is written, and to what standards. Equally, it is not our governments job to license us to protect the consumer. So bottom line it can work for some people some of the time, but its definitely not the cure to solve all issues, or necessarily give home inspectors the respect that they deserve. As stated earlier - licensing is not a bad thing if it is done correctly and for the right reason. The tough part is getting it done correctly.
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Roy Cooke

Roys Home Inspection
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 1987
User: rcooke
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 8:44 PM       Post Subject:
We are just going around in circles .
If as it seams to me OAHI and CAHPI do not have time now to listen to their members .
How can we expect them to be any different to have them look after 1000 inspectors .
They just do not realize their members should be looked after.
They have not done a very good job in the past are doing not very good now.
Why should we expect them to be able to do it in the future.
They did not and do not give information .
This has come from above for so long "just trust us".
I guess I am cynical but see no advantage to even consider ????????? it.

Roy sr.
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Raymond Wand

Raymond Wand Home Inspection Service
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 447
User: rwand1
Posted: Dec 4, 2005 7:33 AM       Post Subject:
Claude the same concerns you express about licensing and the pit falls, short comings are exactly what are taking place now and will take place with National Certification because it will be self regulated. No one has shown in over 10 years that self regulation works.

The fact is you are still left with people who have no idea how self regulation is to work, nor do they want it to work.

Again I will submit myself to licensing before I would ever consider Certification through CAHPI or affiliates.

Good discussion. Thanks for your input.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
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Roy Cooke

Roys Home Inspection
NACHI Member: Yes
(as of 3/25/07)
NACHI Member
Posts: 1987
User: rcooke
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 1:27 PM       Post Subject:
Ever so slowly more information comes out Regarding CHIBO 11.
I keep receiving more informationabout the secret society.

It looks to me that OAHI/CAHPI has been completly ignoring all the members concerns and question because they are trying to pull all the National ? Certifaction? ends together so they can present it to the members in the First of the year.
I have the feeling that the members will have no say or will not be allowed to present their ideas or opinions..
Many come to NACHI to see what is going on and too find the truth .

I hope all look close at what is given out and think do you wish these who have shown in the past they can not be trusted will be trying to run this CHIBO11.

Roy sr

It again looks like Ray and Roy are really the only ones you can trust.

We are not trying to get into your pockets like it looks others are trying to do.
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