Originally Posted By: tgardner This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I inspected a new construction home that had a Jacuzzi Whirlpool Tub installed in the master Bath. The installation instructions for the tub call for a dedicated separate 115VAC, 15amp, 60HZ GFCI protected circuit for the pump, and the same for the reheater if installed.
I looked for a GFCI receptacle at the tub service access and found the pump was hard wired to a junction box. I said OK, the GFCI protection must be in the service panel. When I looked, Nope - no separate circuit for the pump, and no GFI to be found. All the circuits labeled for the bathrooms were 20 amp.
I called for an evaluation. No problem. I happened to know the electrician who ran a 12 a. dedicated circuit to repair the problem, but he still wired it to a 20amp GFCI breaker. I asked why he did this when the instructions say a 15amp circuit. He said I needed to get a real job. That the instructions don't say "maximum" 15 amp and he put a 20 amp breaker because of the 12ga. wire.
My question is this. If the installation instructions say dedicated separate 115VAC, 15amp, 60HZ GFCI protected circuit shouldn't that be what's installed?
Before y'all go and say "Why were you reading the Instructions?", well, I just did, because I'm nosey, that's all!
Originally Posted By: tgardner This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike,
I just called Jacuzzi and asked the same question of the technical service dept. ( I got his name but all I can remember is Mark).
He said " we specify a 15 amp circuit, if the unit is installed on a 20 amp protected circuit, the warranty is Void. The reasoning is, if something unknown happened and cause the pump to run drawing 19.5 amps, the motor and tub could be damaged beyond repair before the GFI sensed a current differential and disconnected the motor from the electricity."
I guess I already have a job. Crushed lower parts notwithstanding.  
Originally Posted By: rbracklow This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Tim,
The electrician is wrong and you are right. The electrician should absolutely know what the specs are and why. There is a reason why we have overcurrent protection and the Jacuzzi guy instructed you correctly and wisely.
You did the right thing by bringing the electrician to bear, and he should go back to electrical school, or get another job, for with his attitude he can certainly cause irreparable harm, or possibly even kill someone.
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
tgardner wrote:
Mike,
Jacuzzi guy said " we specify a 15 amp circuit, if the unit is installed on a 20 amp protected circuit, the warranty is Void. The reasoning is, if something unknown happened and cause the pump to run drawing 19.5 amps, the motor and tub could be damaged beyond repair before the GFI sensed a current differential and disconnected the motor from the electricity."
I believe that this should read "..........the motor and tub could be damaged beyond repair before the 20 AMP BREAKER disconnected the motor from the electricity." The GFI is only protecting from ground faults, not overcurrent.
Now, is the purpose of a circuit breaker to protect the circuit or the device at the end? I don't believe my lamp cords could handle 15 amps.
Originally Posted By: rbracklow This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well,
Let me add my additional $.02 worth.
Typically when a motor goes overcurrent, it does one of two things, 1) it shorts to ground 2) it overheats and the windings go to ground, in either case, it is the GROUND fault device namely the circuit breaker to and GFCI, that will shut down the circuit and prevent damage and electrocution to occur. If it is fused properly and I ground fault (short to ground) occurs, guess which device will take it out first??
Originally Posted By: tgardner This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James,
Your're right, your lamp cords probably wouldn't take 20 amps for very long. But neither would your bulbs.
The thing is, this is a dedicated circuit, not intended to power anything else. As such it is intended to protect the device attached to it. A receptacle circuit is designed to protect the wiring from overheating, not the devices attached to it. I think.
Tim, when the Navy said do it this way, I  did it this way, Gardner
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Good queston and posts. The electrician needs to get his head out of his butt for two seconds, and respect the manufacturer’s instructions and warranty. I’d make him provide the homeowner with a signed document stating that he feels this circuit is sufficient, and that he assumes responsibility for malfunctions, defects, and personal injury resulting from his interpretation of the manufacturer’s specs or intent.
How soon you think he'ss replace the circuit with what the manufacturer specified?
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe F.,
He could leave the 20 amp circuit conductors, just replace the overcurrent protection, using the specified 15 amp GFCI instead of the 20 amp he installed.
The circuit is only as good as its lowest rated component, thus a circuit consisting of 12 AWG on a 15 amp breaker would still be a 15 amp circuit.
This is where the advantage of that comes in: 14 AWG conductors will fit into the back stab holes in devices, 12 AWG conductors will not. That means the 12 AWG conductors would need to be under the screw terminals, a must better connection.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James D Mosier wrote:
Now, is the purpose of a circuit breaker to protect the circuit or the device at the end?
Both 
James D Mosier wrote:
I don't believe my lamp cords could handle 15 amps.
True enough a 16 AWG lamp cord is rated 13 amps and 18 AWG lamp cord is rated at 10 amp.
If you where to draw 15 or 20 amps through these cords they would get hot, but you can not draw that much current through the cord as the lamp or appliance it runs can only drawn under the cords rated current or it could not get a UL listing.
Staying with a table lamp you would need a 1200 watt bulb in the table lamp to draw 10 amps through the cord.
If there is a short circuit at the socket of the lamp the short length of 18 AWG cord will still be of low enough impedance to open a 15 or 20 amp breaker or fuse.
The code covers this.
Quote:
240.5(B)(1) Supply Cord of Listed Appliance or Portable Lamps. Where flexible cord or tinsel cord is approved for and used with a specific listed appliance or portable lamp, it shall be permitted to be supplied by a branch circuit of Article 210 in accordance with the following:
(1)20-ampere circuits ? tinsel cord or 18 AWG cord and larger
(2)30-ampere circuits ? 16 AWG cord and larger
(3)40-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over
(4)50-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over
Appliance cords and the appliances they supply are protected by the branch circuit fuse or breaker.
Now the 3 outlet 16 AWG extension cords are a different story as you could overload these.
I agree with many of the others that the manufactures directions must be followed and when they say 15 amp breaker that is the max, not the min.
Originally Posted By: jrabanus This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I dont think that I would like a “fly by the seat of his pants” eletrician saying that the 20 amps is ok when the specs say 15 amps. I worked for a magnet wire company that makes wire for that kind of motor (Emerson electric motor probably) and I know the capablities of the windings, and you cannot exced there tolerances. My two 2 cents
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The instructions do NOT say 15 amp max.
From my Jacuzzi Tub:" FOR ALL UNITS:
MOTOR/PUMP: 115 VAC, 3450 RPM/7.8 AMP, 60 Hz Single phase.
ELECTRICAL SERVICE REQUIREMENTS: 115 VAC, 15 AMP, 60 Hz. Requires dedicated separate circuit."
It does not say (not more than).
From Jacuzzi:
"Depending on the model of the whirlpool bath, the installation/operation manual specifies which units must be 15 amp versus 20 amp GFCI protected. Since the model number or name of the unit was not listed in this email, you'll need to look at the specifications sheet to determine which is needed for your installation. It is clearly stated at the bottom of the page on each spec sheet. If we require a 15 amp set up, we certainly do not want the unit installed on a 20 amp breaker and yes, putting a 15 amp required unit on a 20 amp service can cause issues with the unit."
How? How can this cause an issue?
This is BS.
"The reasoning is, if something unknown happened and cause the pump to run drawing 19.5 amps, the motor and tub could be damaged beyond repair before the GFI sensed a current differential and disconnected the motor from the electricity."
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike what would you say if they ran 6 AWG up to the unit and used a 60 amp breaker?
Quote:
422.11 Overcurrent Protection.
Appliances shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with 422.11(A) through (G) and 422.10.
(A) Branch-Circuit Overcurrent Protection. Branch circuits shall be protected in accordance with 240.4.
If a protective device rating is marked on an appliance, the branch-circuit overcurrent device rating shall not exceed the protective device rating marked on the appliance.
If it says 15 that is what UL tested / approved it with.
The wiring inside the unit may not withstand 20 amps during a fault.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
Does the NEC say that my disposal or dishwasher is limited to a 15-amp circuit?
Mike P.
I think the answer to that is yes if either of those items says a 15 amp branch circuit.
If they meant a 15 or 20 amp branch circuit wouldn't they say that?
Or they could say 15 amp minimum circuit ampacity but then they would have to list a maximum breaker or fuse too.
UL white Book. Appliance section.
Quote:
Sizes and Ratings
The scope of product sizes and ratings appearing in the general Guide Information for some product categories is intended to
indicate the current range of Listed products, however, it is not necessarily indicative of limitations for those Listed products.
Marked ratings of utilization equipment include ampere, wattage or volt-ampere ratings. Motor-operated utilization equipment
may also be marked with a horsepower rating. The actual marked ratings (other than the horsepower rating) and other markings or
instructions, if any, are to be used to select branch circuit conductors, branch circuit overcurrent protection, control devices and
disconnecting means.
Quote:
V. INSTRUCTIONS AND PRODUCT MARKINGS
The products covered in this directory are intended to be installed in accordance with the installation instructions provided with
the product. It is critical that the cautionary statements and installation and operating instructions on the product and in
accompanying literature be followed.
I guess I would like to see the electrical data plate on the unit to be sure, but IMO if a 15 amp circuit will run it fine a 20 amp circuit is not better.
