Inspection Question

Hello,

I joined this forum to ask a couple questions about an inspection that I have received. I apologize if this is the wrong subforum to post it in.

Summary:
I’m purchasing a 1950’s home in Minnesota (St. Paul), and the inspection was performed yesterday. I’m a first time home buyer and know very little about homes… and after reviewing the inspection I have a couple question.

The report states that I have a 100 amp service, (there is a 100 amp panel), but then there is a 60 Amp meter inside the house sitting by the panel. I don’t quite know how significant of an issue this is…
Quote from report:
“[FONT=Times-Roman][size=2]60 amp meter in basement at panel.
Panel is 100 amp. Recommend further
evaluation by a licensed electrician. No
inspection sticker present on panel.
Meter should be on the exterior with a
new panel.
Main breaker was not operated for
this inspection. Main breaker panel is
located on west basement wall.”

[size=3]That’s my primary concern with the home, in addition to that the living room and kitchen all have ungrounded 3 prong outlets. How concerning is this? The inspector told me that I could just put in GFCI outlets and it would solve the problem, because he said grounding would be too $$ considering the basement is finished etc.

Any advice is appreciated!
Thanks,
Josh
[/size][/size][/FONT]

From what you said it sounds like you got good advice. “Contact an electrician.”

The meter rating is irrelevant with regards to the service capacity of the system, however, the meter “base” may be a limiting factor. In any event, a 60 amp service is not necessarily a defect, but you should consider upgrading if that’s the case. “Further evaluation” is unnecessary in my opinion - either upgrade your service or don’t.

As for the ungrounded receptacles, the inspector is correct - properly grounding the receptacles would likely be quite expensive. Assuming this was originally an ungrounded system, you have the option to (1) replace each receptacle with a GFCI type receptacle, (2) add GFCI protection to each circuit by installing GFCI type breakers in the panels or (3) replace each ungrounded receptacle with a non-grounding type (two-pronged) receptacle.

Depends where he is located at Jeff.
We use conduit here and an extra conductor can be pulled through perhaps.
Did not see a location for the OP.

Jeff, is it necessary to replace each receptacle with a GFCI receptacle or could you just replace one and have protection down the line?

Bob, he’s from St. Paul Minnesota

Josh,
Mr. Pope is correct above, but I do have a question regarding the kitchen… was it remodeled or rehabbed since about 1987? If so, GFCI’s would have been required at the time, and also upgrading the wiring to grounded may have also been required and since the home is in St. Paul, I can almost guarantee this would have been the case if permits were obtained for the work. No inspection sticker typically means the City/State never inspected the work. No permit application? Can’t inspect what they are not aware of.

As for the meter, take a look at the meter face itself. The meter face will usually state what the meter is rated for. It is not uncommon in Minnesota for the meter to be rated CL200 (200 AMPS) and the meter box to be 100A (very common) or even 60A rated (not so common anymore). The POCO (Power Company, Excel(?) in your area) are the utility gods, and dictate what is acceptable for their service, NEC be damned.

I believe the recommendation for a Licensed and Qualified Electrician (trust me, not all fill both requirements) to evaluate the electrical system would be prudent.

David… IMO, on a two wire home, I would recommend installing GFCI receptacles at each necessary location, and anywhere GFCI’s are not required/recommended, reinstall two prong receptacles removing the improper three pronged recep’s. .

Another question I have for the OP is the age of the home and if it is/was Knob and Tube???

Actually there is not enough information to say Further Evaluation is NOT necessary.

The service in this home sounds old and was probably sized originally for the average load that was used then. Times change and more and more electrical appliances are being used thus the LOAD on the homes electrical system could have increased significantly. That being said yes a proper and more detailed evaluation would be a good idea at this point for the buyer.

I would suggest a load calculation be performed by a qualified electrical contractor (Master) and then if deemed necessary a “Heavy Up” be performed. This includes a new meter, new service entrance cable, a new panel and all breakers as well as all ne grounding for this system.

As far as the ungrounded outlets go that also needs more information only obtainable by further evaluation. We would need to know IF there is a ground even in place to be used. If yes than upgrading the outlets to 3 prong grounded type would be a good idea as the replacing alone is a good idea on older type anyway not to mention the addition of the ground.

If there is not a ground present then yes you are correct, a GFCI receptacle or GFCI Breakers. I like the GFCI receptacle option better in this case as that will add the 3rd prong on the outlets so as to accept newer appliance cords that have the 3 prongs on them. Also it replaces and upgrades older worn 2 prong outlets.

Jim

Yes that is possible depending on how the circuit is wired. That would also take further evaluation by a qualified electrician, in most cases that is or could be quite time consuming, thus simply changing the breaker that feeds that circuit to a GFCI breaker will accomplish the same thing and be much easier to do and most likely less costly and in the end accomplishes the same result.

Jim

"“60 amp meter in basement at panel.
Panel is 100 amp. Recommend further
evaluation by a licensed electrician. No
inspection sticker present on panel.
Meter should be on the exterior with a
new panel.
Main breaker was not operated for
this inspection. Main breaker panel is
located on west basement wall.”

From Inspection Question - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f11/inspection-question-85090/#ixzz2fuB6H5Eb"

Where I am, a report like that would make it difficult if not impossible to get home insurance. No insurance, no financing, no deal, and if you have cleared the conditions, no returned deposit.
Contact some insurance providers (anonymously :slight_smile: and ask them what conditions they will not insure.

Multiple receptacles on one circuit can be protected by a single device placed “upstream.” This device can be a circuit breaker or a GFCI receptacle.

Of course, almost all repairs/corrections performed on a residence will require a degree of “further evaluation.” If for nothing else but to determine the proper screwdriver to use. :wink:

However (IMHO), including a recommendation for “FE” in your report should be limited wherever possible. That’s my philosophy anyway, but that’s another discussion altogether.

A load-calc in this case is unwarranted unless you intend to add additional outlets, or you intend to rewire the residence. The home is already wired and outlets are already in place.

jeff in my opinion a house of this age with only a 60 amp service and the issues that we have been told most definitely should have a qualified contractor (master) do a load calculation to determine if a heavy up would be a good idea. Electrical Loads today and the general electrical load isage is much greater than when this home was first built.

Anyway Just how I see it in my humble opinion.

Jim

Im confused. The home is already wired for 60 amps. It’s wired to handle the highest load it can draw. What will the load calc tell you?

Upgrading from a 60 amp service is almost always a “good idea” and I often make that recommendation. But as Juan pointed out, a load calc is really not necessary at this point in the game, when you’re just looking for simple repairs.

If/when the time comes to actually do the work, then a load calc will usually be performed.

So you are saying a load calc isn’t a precursory evaluation performed to determine if an upgrade is needed. It’s performed as part of the upgrade if needed?

No load calc is needed on the existing wiring because that was already performed when the home was built?

[quote=“jpope, post:11, topic:81054”]

However (IMHO), including a recommendation for “FE” in your report should be limited wherever possible. That’s my philosophy anyway, but that’s another discussion altogether.

I agree

 
QUOTE
However (IMHO), including a recommendation for "FE" in your report should be limited wherever possible. That's my philosophy anyway, but that's another discussion altogether.

I agree

[quote=“jpope, post:11, topic:81054”]

.

I agree

The home was built and wired to handle the average load of the average appliances back in the 1950’s. Times have changed and the average electrical loads have risen considerably over the years. People now have microwaves, larger Televisions, moe electronic devices, hair dryers, major appliances etc… the list is endless. All of that said the old 60 amp services are typically not adequate to handle the current average electrical load needs of a typical home today. That is why you cannot even install a 60 amp service in a new home today, they are simply inadequate.

Hope that helps a little. I am not one of those inspectors that recommend further evaluation for everything. We try to not be alarmists and are fairly technical in our inspections where possible and where qualified. In this particular situation in this post, In my professional and qualified opinion Further Evaluation would be a prudent suggestion.

Jim

Jim, I agree with you completely, and for the sake of discussion… many modern day appliances/gadgets/toys have a much lower power consumption rating than the old stuff… even from just ten years ago… i.e… LED flat panel TV’s vs 1950’s thru 2000’s cathode-ray tube TV’s. Granted, Plasma TV’s are a huge power eater, so it’s all Ying/Yang.