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  #16  
Old 2/26/13, 7:23 PM
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI's Avatar
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbushart View Post
NEC 240.24(d) states that the location of an overcurrent device "shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets."

It's quite plain and simple, IMO. Your examples of basements and garages has more to do with the need to keep ignitibles away from the service panel.

The closet is there for the purpose of filling it with ignitible materials and it is usually located in or near sleeping areas. Personally, I give credit to the NFPA to know what they are talking about, here, and I choose not to second guess them.
I completely agree with you on that Jim, but the picture is of the year 2001, did the same NEC article that you state, read the same on that year?

If it did, it was not inspected or permitted properly at the time.

Now 12 years later codes have changed. Recommending that it be relocated due to a fire hazard is way beyond my intellect on this subject matter. It is not loggical.

The electrical panel in my 1972 home that I built was in the kitchen closet and shelving had to be removed to work on it.
Do you think that was relocated when sold in 1988, of course not.

The codes that you post is to enforce building specifications foward to the date it was locally adopted.

This is one that I will agree to disagree with you and no offense taken.






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  #17  
Old 2/26/13, 7:27 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by mcyr View Post
I completely agree with you on that Jim, but the picture is of the year 2001, did the same NEC article that you state, read the same on that year?

If it did, it was not inspected or permitted properly at the time.

Now 12 years later codes have changed. Recommending that it be relocated due to a fire hazard is way beyond my intellect on this subject matter. It is not loggical.

The electrical panel in my 1972 home that I built was in the kitchen closet and shelving had to be removed to work on it.
Do you think that was relocated when sold in 1988, of course not.

The codes that you post is to enforce building specifications foward to the date it was locally adopted.

This is one that I will agree to disagree with you and no offense taken.



No offense to you either, Marcel, but I don't believe in softening a home inspection report by the "date" that an unsafe condition may have been prohibited. I wrote about it, here. (See the paragraph under the heading "It Wasn't in the Code Book, Back Then".)

I am not familiar with your 2001 reference. I quoted from the NEC 2005 that I have on my shelf. It is the version that is used in most of my state.

Last edited by jbushart; 2/26/13 at 9:13 PM..
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  #18  
Old 2/26/13, 7:31 PM
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI's Avatar
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by jwhitt View Post
It has always been against the code to install a panel in a cloths closet even if there the clearances.

This is very dangerous and needs to be fixed and it doesn't matter if some cannot see the danger
If it is, I would appreciate a reference to the 2000 code when I built a College village and one of the panels was in a hallway closet.
The Electrical Inspector at the time had us increase the size of the door to meet the 36" wide access. Other than that, it was fine.




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  #19  
Old 2/26/13, 7:41 PM
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI's Avatar
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by jbushart View Post
No offense to you either, Marcel, but I don't believe in softening a home inspection report by the "date" that an unsafe condition may have been prohibited. I wrote about it, here.

I am not familiar with your 2001 reference. I quoted from the NEC 2005 that I have on my shelf. It is the version that is used in most of my state.
Yes I read it and thanks for the subscription.
I am talking about the 2001 build, not how it should be done today.
Today, I would agree.

To tell people it is unsafe depends on the conditions viewed at the time of the Inspection.

And be realistic, do you actually think they will move the panel on your recommendation, Ha, not going to happen.

As a Builder for the last 45 years, I have seen all conditions, and that one is not one to pose a fire unless undue diligence, and negligence on the occupant to use commen sense in the proper use of an accessible panel require at all times.

Codes and laws are written everyday to protect the idiots, but unfortunatly, everytime you make something idiot proof, a New One is Born.





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  #20  
Old 2/26/13, 7:43 PM
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

This is where I start remembering this is a national forum and not always a good advice.
We can all quote code .

Have fun guys.
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  #21  
Old 2/26/13, 8:00 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by mcyr View Post
And be realistic, do you actually think they will move the panel on your recommendation, Ha, not going to happen.
Okay ... so ... a home inspector should recommend something else so that the parties responsible for the condition of the home might agree with his recommendation? Is that the job of a home inspector, in your opinion?

In my opinion, the inspector should simply point out the defect and recommend that it be corrected. If his advice is ignored, it does not change the fact that it was his duty to report it. He is not a negotiator.

Last edited by jbushart; 2/26/13 at 8:26 PM..
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  #22  
Old 2/26/13, 8:27 PM
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI's Avatar
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by jbushart View Post
Okay ... so ... a home inspector should recommend something else so that they might agree? Is that the job of a home inspector, in your opinion?

In my opinion, the inspector should simply point out the defect and recommend that it be corrected. If his advice is ignored, it does not change the fact that it was his duty to report it.

No you don't understand, a true Home Inspector knows where to draw the line.
Based on experience, one would know that an electrical panel such as shown on the OP is far from contributing to a fire hazard.

It is accessible and can be worked on.

I am realistic and loggical. Give me a break. Nothing wrong accept meeting todays standard Code.

I would note that todays standard of building does not approve of an electrical panel in a closet and it either be relocated or maintained in a free accessible condition to prevent a hazard to the occupants.

Does that work.



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  #23  
Old 2/26/13, 8:30 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by mcyr View Post
No you don't understand, a true Home Inspector knows where to draw the line.
Based on experience, one would know that an electrical panel such as shown on the OP is far from contributing to a fire hazard.

It is accessible and can be worked on.

I am realistic and loggical. Give me a break. Nothing wrong accept meeting todays standard Code.

I would note that todays standard of building does not approve of an electrical panel in a closet and it either be relocated or maintained in a free accessible condition to prevent a hazard to the occupants.

Does that work.
I don't think I have ever disagreed with any post on this message board more than I disagree with this one.

A "true home inspector" (whatever that is) should not write soft reports. He reports the defects and recommends that they be corrected. He leaves it to others to work out any compromises. The day that this changes is the day that home inspection reports should be included within the brokers' listing advertisements.

Tell your doctor that you started smoking cigarettes before 1964 when the Surgeon General began posting his warning on cigarette packs and how, thus, they offer no threat to your health, today. LOL

In my opinion, when the NFPA says that a particular location for an electrical panel is unsafe, it is immoral for any home inspector to report otherwise to his client. Other opinions will vary and I understand this since not all inspectors have the same agenda, but we are not just talking about "ease of access" for future repairs here.

Last edited by jbushart; 2/26/13 at 9:01 PM..
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  #24  
Old 2/26/13, 9:05 PM
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

I was waiting for the soft report comments....lol
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  #25  
Old 2/26/13, 9:07 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by belliott View Post
I was waiting for the soft report comments....lol
I can see why. I agree with you. It certainly applies in this case.

Last edited by jbushart; 2/26/13 at 9:17 PM..
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  #26  
Old 2/26/13, 9:19 PM
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by jbushart View Post
I can see why. I agree with you. It certainly applies in this case.
So far we all agree panels in a closet are against present code .

We can say safety is the law of physics and has nothing to do with anything and granfathering is a cop out but how many of us called out closet panels before they were code ?

As a matter of fact how do we even know code applies where the OP is ?

Really not much to argue about here .

Just curious if we all were calling out lack of AFCI before 2006 as well.(hmmm is it in that panel ?)
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  #27  
Old 2/26/13, 9:39 PM
Greg Fox Greg Fox is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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Originally Posted by belliott View Post
So far we all agree panels in a closet are against present code .

We can say safety is the law of physics and has nothing to do with anything and granfathering is a cop out but how many of us called out closet panels before they were code ?

As a matter of fact how do we even know code applies where the OP is ?

Really not much to argue about here .

Just curious if we all were calling out lack of AFCI before 2006 as well.(hmmm is it in that panel ?)
It looks like the 1981 NEC edition is the first to mention breakers in clothes closets...As I stated earlier, I built a home here in Nashville in the late 1980's and the electrician put the panel a clothes closet. The local county inspector caught it and made the electrician relocate the panel.
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  #28  
Old 2/26/13, 9:53 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belliott View Post
So far we all agree panels in a closet are against present code .

We can say safety is the law of physics and has nothing to do with anything and granfathering is a cop out but how many of us called out closet panels before they were code ?

As a matter of fact how do we even know code applies where the OP is ?

Really not much to argue about here .

Just curious if we all were calling out lack of AFCI before 2006 as well.(hmmm is it in that panel ?)
Read this entire JLC article ... particularly the quotes they took from inspectors on this message board.

People actually die from unsafe conditions in the home every day. In my opinion, the home inspector who is providing a complete, accurate and unbiased inspection report will simply call out the defects to his client without regard to the welfare or opinions of anyone other than his client (the prospective home buyer).

Again, I know that this view is not common to all home inspectors. Not everyone here will agree. This is why it is important for consumers to select their inspector by using factors other than who has the cheapest fee.
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  #29  
Old 2/26/13, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

J.B you live in a place a place with no hi rises and hope one day you can visit to see that
here we have many thousands of units that can not in any way ,shape or form comply to certain codes that were written after they were built.

Just noticed this is on public so at least understand the grand standing going on here .
SEO juice .Got it ....
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  #30  
Old 2/26/13, 10:12 PM
James H. Bushart James H. Bushart is offline
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Default Re: Anyone know the proper repair for a breaker panel in a clothes closet?

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J.B you live in a place a place with no hi rises and hope one day you can visit to see that
here we have many thousands of units that can not in any way ,shape or form comply to certain codes that were written after they were built.
There are unsafe buildings in every city. There are people who are buying them and who are paying home inspectors to report on their present condition.

I don't think the family of this dead child have found comfort in the fact that the unsafe condition that killed their child was present before the rules forbidding it.

I could be wrong, but I would think that they would have preferred to have had their inspector inform them of its presence and have recommended the proper repair. If they had received such a report and "laughed" (as you put it), it would be on them.
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