Hey Guys,
Not sure if anyone has posted this already but it seems to be a nice online codecheck version. Click on the links on the page I place below. Now many of you probably already have the series made by Code Check but those that do not this is a nice general helper for multiple things for HI’s
Nice! I am already bookmarking it!
Very cool Paul. Thanks. =D>
Thanks Paul
Very nice !!!
“The Fatal Current”](http://www.codecheck.com/images/ElectrocutionBen450px.gif) starring Ben Franklin.
The tragic story of a man, his appliance and an electric short.
**Watch him as he unwittingly uses his body to complete a current. **
A real heartbreaker.
**
http://www.codecheck.com/images/ElectrocutionBen1.gif
**
Joe -
I had a very interesting thing happen today. I inspected a new home (about 6 months old). There were 4 HVAC units. Everyone had its breaker either undersized or oversized from the applicable data tag.
By that I mean for example 1 might say on the outside data tag:
Minimum Ampacity 33 Amps & Maximum HVACR Breaker Size - 40 Amp
BUT there was a 50 Amp Breaker present **OR **
it might say on the outside data tag:
Minimum Ampacity 40 Amps & Maximum HVACR Breaker Size - 50 Amp
AND the wiring inside at the panel box was a 30 Amp wire.
The seller was a builder and while I was going over these issues with the buyer, the builder was calling the electrician and city codes guy who tried telling me that this was OK because there was a motor involved (the A/C unit) the wiring or breaker could vary by 125%. I also found 2 outlets in the master bathroom and guest bath that were not on GFCI - the electrical guru and code guy said that was OK because those duplex outlets were intended for the central vac to be plugged into. Both outlets were within 3’ of a bathtub and at normal hammer height off the floor.
Tell me I’m loosing it and this is the new codes.
Dan:
[FONT=Arial]Air Conditioning and Refrigeration[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Air conditioning and refrigeration equipment requirements are covered in
Article 440 of the National Electrical Code®. Hermetic motor-compressors are not rated in “full-load amps” as are standard motors. Instead, different terms are used, such as rated load current, branch circuit selection current, maximum continuous current, minimum circuit ampacity, and maximum overcurrent protection. This equipment has overcurrent protection
requirements that differ from that for ordinary motors covered in Article 430. Some highlights are presented here.
Branch Circuit Protection HVAC
Individual Motor-Compressor(s) and HVAC Equipment
Having Motor-Compressor(s) and Other Loads (Such as Fan Motors, Electric Heaters, Coils, etc.). Fuses sized for branch circuit protection only must not exceed 175% of the
hermetic motor-compressor rated-load current or branch circuit selection current (whichever is larger). If this size fuse cannot withstand the motor starting current, a higher amp rating is permitted, but in no case can the fuse size exceed 225% [440.22(A)].
Low-Peak dual-element and Fusetron dual-element fuses are recommended for branch circuit protection of air conditioning and refrigeration hermetic motor compressors because these fuses have an adequate time-delay for motor starting surges.
Refer to the nameplate on the equipment. The sizing (amp rating) for the overcurrent protection has been determined by the manufacturer of the equipment. It is not necessary to apply any further multipliers to arrive at the proper size. This has already been done by the manufacturer.
The marked protective device rating is the maximum protective device rating for which the equipment has been investigated and found acceptable by nationally recognized testing laboratories.
See “Listed or Labeled Equipment” for requirement when nameplate states Maximum Size Fuse. This is a critical requirement, and must be followed without exception to be in compliance with 110.3(B) of the Code. NEC
110.3(B) requires that listed or labeled equipment must be installed in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
The most recent change in the NEC requires the following
210.52(D) Bathrooms
In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop
*[FONT=Arial][size=3]Exception: The receptacle shall not be required to be mounted in the wall or partition where it
**is installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the *countertop.
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Joe, without quoting code and putting it in normal terms, the way I read that is that it is not 225% of the max listed breaker; the breaker MUST never exceed the max on the mfg data plate, correct?
Joe…Dude…reduce the text fella…no one can read that !
Ok…anyway I can’t begin to read that in that size so I will give you my jargon on it.
The nameplate ratings should already be sized and calculated for this application. Now the electrician and quote CODE guy who said the recepts within the bathroom did not need to be GFCI is on CRACK…now if the central vac is plugged into the recept…then may fly because it is dedicated but if the plug has nothing in it and it sitting open…it better be GFCI.
IN previous codes only the counter GFCI was needed but slowly as 210.8(A)(1) evolved the term ALL started to become the prevailing issue as simply put GFCI do save lives.
Now…sometimes It really bothers me when even the clear cut rulings are ignored in your case with the electrician…Now…sure they could argue the recept. is dedicated for the central vac…ok who puts that in a bathroom…anyway…if you follow the article it says ALL have to be GFCI…so now lets look at the exceptions…
Oh wait…their isnt one under this application for Bathrooms…anyway…just foolish to put a recept in a bathroom and not make it GFCI…just not good wiring practice in my opinion.
OK…back to the dataplate…the wiring to these HVAC units MUST comply with the ratings on the dataplate…unless you are leaving out something here in my opinion they are wired incorrectly in your examples…now will they work…probably…
Anyway I think thats what joe is also saying…hmmm…tell that local CODE inspector to give me a call…I will refresh his memory for FREE…
:shock: HOLY GIANT TEXT:shock: Sparkyman ****
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Resized it for ya joe…:)…Tried anyway
Dave:
Exactly, the namplate provides the information that gives the instructions and they are to be followed. I posted the first reply to Dave last night! I sure enjoyed that Local Beer.
Thanks Paul for trying and Todd, fancy seeing you here?
This is why I so love doing HI’s. There I am explaining to my buyer (an attorney - law partner with a State Senator), his dad (a licensed contractor from FLA) and the buyers agent (ex- HVAC contractor) these defects and the next thing I know, I’ve got the seller (the home builder) on the phone with his electrician and local code guy explaining that ALL is OKIE DOKIE.
AND I’m thinking - this is why they want to get us HI’s licensed - because we’re not trained or qualified like these guru’s. In Missouri over 70 of our about 114 counties don’t have licensed contractors or builders NOR do they have mandatory building codes, code inspections or a State Required Building Code.
Fortunately this was in one of the Regulated Counties SO the contractor, home builder and code guy knew their stuff and were able to help my buyer by jumping in and correcting my little mistakes.
Dan…again I am confused…where were your mistakes?
The information you post is correct…the official is wrong
Right back at ya Joe.
Worth Reliving…For the NEWBIES !
Good link Paul, that I reference occasionally too. Only down side is limited table values. Many (including me) highly recommend an HI at least have the basic CodeCheck reference with them on an inspection … very handy … http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070680.asp
P.S. I also think Dan was right on the money, and should have asked the experts to put things in writing (assuming the one noted as a problem with 30 Amp wire and a 40 Amp Minimum Ampacity wasn’t #10 Cu THHN in conduit which is good for 40A).
Hey Paul, how current is that edition of Code Check? Are the referenced codes current?
Not sure Brian…I will look it over
