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  #1  
Old 12/2/18, 7:59 PM
Charley L. Bottger's Avatar
Charley L. Bottger Charley L. Bottger is offline
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Default Radiant floor heat

In Okla finding radiant floor heat is like finding teeth in a chicken. In my 20 years in inspecting I have had three but one of those was in Kansas. Just not popular here. The one today was on a 2006 home and google stated the MFG of that brand was no longer being MFG go tell. A 140,000 BTU boiler and a 3 thousand one hundred SQ FT home. I suppose Most HI's in this state have never operated one. The boiler was off when I arrived and it took almost 2 hours before the thermal camera was able to detect a pattern and not a very good one at that, but good enough to determine the distance between the tubes.
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Radiant floor heat-dscn4627-jpg   Radiant floor heat-dscn4630-jpg   Radiant floor heat-ir_23174-jpg   Radiant floor heat-ir_23173-jpg  



http://www.oklahomathermalinfraredimaging.com/
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Master HVAC Mechanic Retired
Level III Thermographer # 8486 Infraspection Institute
CMI Certified Master Inspector
Residential/Commercial Inspections
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55 years in the Trades
Okla State License # 130
580-268-3340

Last edited by cbottger; 12/2/18 at 9:37 PM..
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  #2  
Old 12/2/18, 8:35 PM
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Marcel Gratton, CMI Marcel Gratton, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

I guess they don't have a TPR valve, only a pressure relief valve.
Yeah, they do take a longgg time to show its heating when in concrete flooring, especially when covered with carpet.



Marcel Gratton, NACHI04011210, CMI
On The Level Inspection
Gatineau, Québec
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  #3  
Old 12/2/18, 8:55 PM
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Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbottger View Post
In Okla finding radiant floor heat is like finding teeth in a chicken. In my 20 years in inspecting I have had three but one of those was in Kansas. Just not popular here. The one today was on a 2006 home and google stated the MFG of that brand was no longer being MFG go tell. A 140,000 BTU boiler and a 31K SQ FT home. I suppose Most HI's in this state have never operated one. The boiler was off when I arrived and it took almost 2 hours before the thermal camera was able to detect a pattern and not a very good one at that, but good enough to determine the distance between the tubes.
That, Charley, is a big home!!

I love in floor heat.




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  #4  
Old 12/2/18, 9:36 PM
Charley L. Bottger's Avatar
Charley L. Bottger Charley L. Bottger is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkage View Post
That, Charley, is a big home!!

I love in floor heat.

Whoops I left out the Coma the SQ FT was 3 thousand 0ne hundred



http://www.oklahomathermalinfraredimaging.com/
http://www.freedomexpressinspections.com/
Master HVAC Mechanic Retired
Level III Thermographer # 8486 Infraspection Institute
CMI Certified Master Inspector
Residential/Commercial Inspections
Moisture Intrusion Expert Witness
55 years in the Trades
Okla State License # 130
580-268-3340
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  #5  
Old 12/2/18, 9:39 PM
Charley L. Bottger's Avatar
Charley L. Bottger Charley L. Bottger is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgratton View Post
I guess they don't have a TPR valve, only a pressure relief valve.
Yeah, they do take a longgg time to show its heating when in concrete flooring, especially when covered with carpet.

The flooring was wood over concrete except the utility and the bathroom floor and it was very slow to start with.



http://www.oklahomathermalinfraredimaging.com/
http://www.freedomexpressinspections.com/
Master HVAC Mechanic Retired
Level III Thermographer # 8486 Infraspection Institute
CMI Certified Master Inspector
Residential/Commercial Inspections
Moisture Intrusion Expert Witness
55 years in the Trades
Okla State License # 130
580-268-3340
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  #6  
Old 12/2/18, 10:10 PM
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Randy Mayo, P.E. Randy Mayo, P.E. is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Concrete is a big heat sink and slow to heat up, especially if they did not install a thermal barrier under the concrete slab.




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  #7  
Old 12/3/18, 9:08 AM
Charley L. Bottger's Avatar
Charley L. Bottger Charley L. Bottger is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmayo View Post
Concrete is a big heat sink and slow to heat up, especially if they did not install a thermal barrier under the concrete slab.

I agree and the one I did in Kansas we learned during the law suit that no thermal barrier was installed plus the tubes as per MFG should be no more than 12 inches apart. There is no visible way to know if a thermal barrier is installed after the fact at least to my knowledge.



http://www.oklahomathermalinfraredimaging.com/
http://www.freedomexpressinspections.com/
Master HVAC Mechanic Retired
Level III Thermographer # 8486 Infraspection Institute
CMI Certified Master Inspector
Residential/Commercial Inspections
Moisture Intrusion Expert Witness
55 years in the Trades
Okla State License # 130
580-268-3340
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  #8  
Old 12/3/18, 1:03 PM
Erik Schmidt Erik Schmidt is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

I do thermal imaging for a guy who installs hoists in auto repair shops. Many if not most larger shops like newer car and truck dealerships have underfloor heating. He needs to know where the water lines are to place his drilled anchor bolts between them. The hot water lines are about 6 inches deep because the slabs are designed for heavy equipment, so the images are really fuzzy compared to what you might find in a home. If they forget to turn on the heat before I arrive its a half hour wait at least before we can find them.



Erik Schmidt


East Side Home Inspection
Edmonton Alberta
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  #9  
Old 12/4/18, 2:19 PM
Scott Frakes, CMI Scott Frakes, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Charlie,

In floor heat is tricky in even beginning to determine if its functional.
Some of it here in Northern Michigan and often done incorrectly with inadequate insulation, Rfoil bubble wrap under the concrete and some times no insulation with excessive downward heating into the ground or basement.
I make sure the boiler is up to temp and by the way if a cast iron sectional was used a mising valve or injection station will be present, and like indicated above an IR camera can help with detecting heat.
Beyond that I use the following and go no further:

In floor radiant tubing not visible to inspect. Inspector cannot verify adequate heat output from this system. Although boiler may appear functional, this is not an indication of a properly installed radiant in-floor heating system. Have a heating contractor review after the heating system has been in heating mode for a minimum of 24 hours.

In addition, many systems are zoned with pumps and you would need to verify each are working.
Too many areas to get tripped up......
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  #10  
Old 12/8/18, 11:15 AM
Jeff Spencer's Avatar
Jeff Spencer Jeff Spencer is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Major drawback with in-floor systems is the time it takes to raise the temperature. Back when I was in the HVAC trade we had a couple of large commercial clients that would wait until returning back from the first cold weekend to turn the system on. Even after telling them year after year, they would then be surprised that it took 1 hour per degree to raise the temperature. Great system once they are started up though.



Jeff Spencer
Story County Home Inspections
Ames, Iowa
515-779-6724
jeff@storycountyhomeinspections.com
www.Storycountyhomeinspections.com
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  #11  
Old 12/8/18, 12:17 PM
Larry Kage, CMI's Avatar
Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfrakes View Post
Charlie,

In floor heat is tricky in even beginning to determine if its functional.
Some of it here in Northern Michigan and often done incorrectly with inadequate insulation, Rfoil bubble wrap under the concrete and some times no insulation with excessive downward heating into the ground or basement.
I make sure the boiler is up to temp and by the way if a cast iron sectional was used a mising valve or injection station will be present, and like indicated above an IR camera can help with detecting heat.
Beyond that I use the following and go no further:

In floor radiant tubing not visible to inspect. Inspector cannot verify adequate heat output from this system. Although boiler may appear functional, this is not an indication of a properly installed radiant in-floor heating system. Have a heating contractor review after the heating system has been in heating mode for a minimum of 24 hours.

In addition, many systems are zoned with pumps and you would need to verify each are working.
Too many areas to get tripped up......
Good post Scott.

I hope you're staying warm.




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SUBMIT YOUR AWARD NOMINATIONS HERE:
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The InterNACHI Awards Committee is the final authority of the issuance of any award the committee offers and any rules interpretation updates.
____________________________________________

Larry Kage, CMI Lifetime Member
State Licensed Builder since 1973
InterNACHI Lifetime Member
~retired~

The above post represents my personal opinion.
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  #12  
Old 12/8/18, 8:26 PM
Larry Kage, CMI's Avatar
Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by jspencer View Post
Major drawback with in-floor systems is the time it takes to raise the temperature. Back when I was in the HVAC trade we had a couple of large commercial clients that would wait until returning back from the first cold weekend to turn the system on. Even after telling them year after year, they would then be surprised that it took 1 hour per degree to raise the temperature. Great system once they are started up though.
Jeff, that sounds like a ground water heat pump we had 25 years ago. It worked great at keeping the house within a couple of degrees once it was up to temperature but we needed a commercial grade water heater as backup to bring it up to temp quickly.

Also it would keep the house as cold as a meat locker for $5/month back then.

It was great!




Awards Committee Officer
SUBMIT YOUR AWARD NOMINATIONS HERE:
http://co.nachi.org/inachiawards/

The InterNACHI Awards Committee is the final authority of the issuance of any award the committee offers and any rules interpretation updates.
____________________________________________

Larry Kage, CMI Lifetime Member
State Licensed Builder since 1973
InterNACHI Lifetime Member
~retired~

The above post represents my personal opinion.
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  #13  
Old 12/12/18, 3:11 PM
Scott Frakes, CMI Scott Frakes, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Yes Larry , keeping warm here in Gaylord!
However, some in floor radiant heating would feel good on my toes
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  #14  
Old 12/12/18, 10:23 PM
Jeff Spencer's Avatar
Jeff Spencer Jeff Spencer is online now
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Default Re: Radiant floor heat

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkage View Post
Jeff, that sounds like a ground water heat pump we had 25 years ago. It worked great at keeping the house within a couple of degrees once it was up to temperature but we needed a commercial grade water heater as backup to bring it up to temp quickly.

Also it would keep the house as cold as a meat locker for $5/month back then.

It was great!
This was run by a Lochinvar boiler. Not sure if they still do it, but they would design the loops and system for you, if you bought their equipment.



Jeff Spencer
Story County Home Inspections
Ames, Iowa
515-779-6724
jeff@storycountyhomeinspections.com
www.Storycountyhomeinspections.com
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