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  #1  
Old 2/25/10, 5:26 PM
Chuck Evans, TREC 7657's Avatar
Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 is offline
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Default Supply vs. Return Register Placement

New construction in Houston area with conditioned attic space. The attached picture shows the close proximity of the return air duct to one of the supply ducts in the master bedroom (spacing is about 24 inches and they are both somewhat tucked into a corner). Both my client and I think they are too close, but the builder is resisting.

I'm looking for an authoritative source / citation that addresses minimum required separation and what the minimum is. I suspect that it's in the ACCA Manual D, but I don't have it. Any help is appreciated.



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Last edited by cevans; 2/7/14 at 9:23 PM..
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  #2  
Old 2/25/10, 5:33 PM
Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Crank the heat way up and break out you IR imager...




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The above post represents my personal opinion.
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  #3  
Old 2/25/10, 7:03 PM
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James F. McKee James F. McKee is online now
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkage View Post
Crank the heat way up and break out you IR imager...

that should do it....



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  #4  
Old 2/25/10, 8:07 PM
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Bob Elliott Bob Elliott is online now
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

I do have a file somewhere as this issue came up for me last year.
Till then ,I am pretty sure it is wrong.
Will post when found.
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  #5  
Old 2/25/10, 8:58 PM
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mklein mklein is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

From what I can see, the louvers on the diffuser are aimed away from the return grille. In which case, the supply air should be blown away from the return. In fact, blowing air away from the return could enhance the air flow toward the return.

In general, though, all diffusers have throws that are vary with supply air flow. The throw is the distance the air will flow before reaching a terminal velocity of 50 fpm. In designing supply air systems, the goal is not to have the return air opening toward the outer edge of the throw. That means that the supply air diffuser is usually placed as far away from the return as possible. That being said, one manufacturer used to make a supply air diffuser that had the return in the middle of the diffuser. The theory was that the movement of the supply air helped pull air toward the return air opening. I believe it didn't succeed because of the logistics of installing the diffusers.

I will also add that no matter how return air diffusers are designed, they usually do not work as designed. The only ones that have a chance of working right are ducted ones. Even then, most of these systems are not balanced, and return air systems need to be balanced just as supply air systems do.



Matthew Klein, P.E., M.B.A.

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  #6  
Old 2/25/10, 9:59 PM
Brian A. MacNeish Brian A. MacNeish is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by cevans View Post
New construction in Houston area with conditioned attic space. The attached picture shows the close proximity of the return air duct to one of the supply ducts in the master bedroom (spacing is about 24 inches and they are both somewhat tucked into a corner). Both my client and I think they are too close, but the builder is resisting.

I'm looking for an authoritative source / citation that addresses minimum required separation and what the minimum is. I suspect that it's in the ACCA Manual D, but I don't have it. Any help is appreciated.

SHEESH!!!! All that is needed is common sense!! Try the analogy of a short circuit in an electrical circuit. The power isn't getting where it needs to be.

In this case, the conditioned air is not getting where it needs to be.......it's being short-circuited back to the return. Try using a bit of smoke from a smoke pencil when the system is running.
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  #7  
Old 2/25/10, 10:57 PM
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Michael R. Boyett Michael R. Boyett is online now
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Chuck, are you sure that return air grill is ducted to the AHU? It might just be a transfer or jumper duct to a nearby hallway to help equalize pressure and allow a path for air to get back to a hall and eventually a return when the door is closed to that room. If so, then I wouldn't think the location shown would be an issue. If it is ducted to the AHU then take a look at this document.

2004_09TechTalk_ReturnGrillLocations.pdf
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  #8  
Old 2/25/10, 11:16 PM
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Russell J. Hensel Russell J. Hensel is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

thanks michael for the input...
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  #9  
Old 2/26/10, 2:54 AM
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Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mboyett View Post
Chuck, are you sure that return air grill is ducted to the AHU? It might just be a transfer or jumper duct to a nearby hallway to help equalize pressure and allow a path for air to get back to a hall and eventually a return when the door is closed to that room. If so, then I wouldn't think the location shown would be an issue. If it is ducted to the AHU then take a look at this document.

Attachment 35241
Thanks Michael. Yes it is an actual return that is ducted back to the return plenum. Not a jumper or transfer duct.

BTW: I did come across this document which is an interesting resource http://www.energy.ca.gov/efficiency/...rocedures.html

I guess one thing that could be done to test the affect that the proximity of the supply to the return may be to place a temp probe in the suspect return duct and another in a non-suspect return duct with the system operating and compare the temperatures to see if the suspect return air temperature is being significantly influenced by the supply (i.e., when the heat is running is the return air temperature inside this duct higher than other return ducts). YES - I know that this goes beyond the normal scope of a home inspection.

Thought I would share another "interesting" duct location from this house. Note the location of the fresh air intake duct in this picture (yes they used an exhaust duct and placed silicone caulk in the louver pivots to hold the louvers open). The intake is placed directly above the hot discharge of the condensing unit (remember this is southeast Texas).



Chuck Evans (TREC #7657)
Level III Infraspection Institute Certified Infrared Thermographer (#8402)
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Last edited by cevans; 2/7/14 at 9:23 PM..
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  #10  
Old 2/26/10, 6:55 AM
Brian A. MacNeish Brian A. MacNeish is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mboyett View Post
Chuck, are you sure that return air grill is ducted to the AHU? It might just be a transfer or jumper duct to a nearby hallway to help equalize pressure and allow a path for air to get back to a hall and eventually a return when the door is closed to that room. If so, then I wouldn't think the location shown would be an issue. If it is ducted to the AHU then take a look at this document.

Attachment 35241
Are there other supply grilles in the room?

If not..........These two grilles are tucked into a small remote corner. There is no way any amount of the supply air, especially if heated, will make it out into the room. IT'S BAD DESIGN.......plain and simple!!!!
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  #11  
Old 2/26/10, 7:43 PM
Chuck Evans, TREC 7657's Avatar
Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 Chuck Evans, TREC 7657 is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

There is a second supply in this room



Chuck Evans (TREC #7657)
Level III Infraspection Institute Certified Infrared Thermographer (#8402)
HomeCert Houston Home Inspections & Thermal Inspections Find us on Facebook
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  #12  
Old 2/27/10, 12:07 AM
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mklein mklein is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement

I have to wonder if some people do not understand how ceiling diffusers work. If they are designed properly, the air blows out along the ceiling. To get an idea of the air flow pattern for a single throw diffuser, look at Figure 14 in this article: http://www.hdgrant.com/hpacart.pdf. The louver direction dictates which direction the air flows. If you look closely at the photo, you can see that the louvers are aimed away from the return grille. If you look at Figure 14 in the article, you can see that if the diffuser is working correctly, that is designed with the proper air flow for the diffuser, then the return air grille is in an optimal location in the room.

If you want to verify what is going on in the room, use a smoke tube to visualize the air flow. It is probably one of the most under-rated diagnostic tools out there.



Matthew Klein, P.E., M.B.A.

Criterium Engineers

PO Box 181503
Cincinnati, OH 45018-1503
Phone: 513-474-9600
FAX: 888-747-0427
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  #13  
Old 2/27/10, 11:29 AM
David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40's Avatar
David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40 David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40 is offline
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Default Re: Supply vs. Return Register Placement



Example of "throw" (ignore the ceiling leak...).



"working together to get-IR-done" Chris Walsh
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