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  #16  
Old 9/5/18, 8:51 PM
Robert LeHoullier Robert LeHoullier is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Paul unfortunately I think this will become the norm, Im a new inspector myself and I believe that using IR will become a minimum standard that all inspectors will have to have. In my area there a lot of inspectors using IR and quite a few are properly trained but a bunch are not. I will be buying a quality camera and getting all the appropriate training at least level 1 before I start incorporating this IR into my Inspections. I don’t know that I will get anymore money for my inspections with IR but I believe i will be better equipped to service my customers. In my previous business my techs would spend upwards of 30k on their own tools to go along with all the real specialty stuff I provided. Lots of training had to go along with those tools that they paid for out of their pockets also. This is the way of the future and to do it right there will be other tools that will have to bought to support IR properly also as I’m sure you know already. My thoughts are that if i get the proper training with the equipment and get the experience needed that i may be able to do other types of Inspections with my camera to help overcome the costs of owning the equipment and getting the training. It’s a long play in the business. Still a very inexpensive business to get into most of the money spent is just the time it takes to get the customers reaching out to on a consistent basis.

Just my 2 cents from someone new entering this game.
Bob
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  #17  
Old 9/5/18, 9:21 PM
Stephen W. Stanczyk's Avatar
Stephen W. Stanczyk Stephen W. Stanczyk is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

People, people, people. STOP giving things away. When you include "free IR", you degrade your profession. You are driving the prices down with your lack of sales training. It doesn't matter (actually it does) what type of infrared camera you use. When you give things away for free, that means you are assigning it 0 Value. You don't see doctors giving away free xrays or exams. You don't see lawyers giving away free court representation. You don't see architects giving away free drawings / designs. You don't see Engineers giving away free calculations for repairs or designs. PROFESSIONALS don't give away their services. Hobbyists give thing away. Poor business people give things away. People with low self esteem give things away.


Treat your business like a business. You see people that get professional training get professional pricing. You think Bill Warner goes out of state for a $200 IR inspection? Or Charley Bottger? Or Chuck Evans? Hell no. You would have to add either one or two more zeroes to the total, and smart businesses pay them those large amounts. Of course they pay 5-6 figures for their top of the line cameras. Stop undercutting yourself AND your profession and SELL IR.




Stephen Stanczyk
Washington State Licensed Home Inspector # 221
InterNACHI Lifetime Member

RETIRED

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  #18  
Old 9/5/18, 10:02 PM
Robert LeHoullier Robert LeHoullier is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

I’m not advocating discounting, the cost of an inspection may have too go up for customers. What I’m saying is it’s becoming the norm not the exception not an ancillary service. My guess is that in most major metro areas this will happen sooner than later and gradually work its way out into the rural areas of the country. More training will be required to our jobs as it does in many other industries. Technology is pushing us to evolve.
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  #19  
Old 9/5/18, 10:10 PM
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Chuck Evans Chuck Evans is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

I have no trouble getting paid for it. You have to help your prospects understand the difference in "value" vs. cost.

If you get an “infrared scan” as part of your home inspection for no cost, I can assure you that it was priced appropriately for the value provided.



Chuck Evans (TREC #7657)
Level III Infraspection Institute Certified Infrared Thermographer (#8402)
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Last edited by cevans; 9/5/18 at 10:33 PM..
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  #20  
Old 9/5/18, 10:18 PM
Jeff Belrose, CMI Jeff Belrose, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstanczyk View Post
People, people, people. STOP giving things away. When you include "free IR", you degrade your profession. You are driving the prices down with your lack of sales training. It doesn't matter (actually it does) what type of infrared camera you use. When you give things away for free, that means you are assigning it 0 Value. You don't see doctors giving away free xrays or exams. You don't see lawyers giving away free court representation. You don't see architects giving away free drawings / designs. You don't see Engineers giving away free calculations for repairs or designs. PROFESSIONALS don't give away their services. Hobbyists give thing away. Poor business people give things away. People with low self esteem give things away.


Treat your business like a business. You see people that get professional training get professional pricing. You think Bill Warner goes out of state for a $200 IR inspection? Or Charley Bottger? Or Chuck Evans? Hell no. You would have to add either one or two more zeroes to the total, and smart businesses pay them those large amounts. Of course they pay 5-6 figures for their top of the line cameras. Stop undercutting yourself AND your profession and SELL IR.

You are looking at it wrong. You buy a tool to use tool. If people won't buy the service....what good is the tool. I have a blower door system, about $4500 that sits in my shop...all year. It may go up for sale. It certainly isn't close to paying for itself. I have water damage equipment that has paid for itself many times over.



Differentiating yourself and adding value to what you are doing will allow you to get a better price, but also, get paid more often, because you are getting more jobs than your competition is. People skip radon testing all of the time. Mainly, because it is a separate cost. I will leave it that way. But you can bet that if I incorporated it i to my pricing, virtually everyone would do it. Am not going to do that because it would drive my pricing too high and we still sell to a high percentage of folks. But, if you give people a choice, specially with thermal, because most people do not see the value in it....it will sit in the case.



To me, it is like a moisture meter or screw driver...you use it, if you have it to perform a better inspection. Because that is really what it is all about. If you are good, you are going to work and get paid. If you aren't....you won't.



That simple.
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  #21  
Old 9/6/18, 12:40 AM
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI's Avatar
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Over 35 years one thing I've observed about home inspections and buyers and Realtors. That blaring fact, like it OR don't is that in at least 75% of the time the lowest priced inspector (especially if they're softer) gets more work than the higher priced more picky (more thorough) inspectors.



Rolox and Timex both sell watches ...... Who sells more?


You pick a niche or slot and go for it.



In my area we have at least 160-170 home inspectors BUT only 5 certified trained EIFS or Stucco Moisture Inspectors.


We often make twice as much looking at one main component (the stucco) on someones house than the home inspector does looking at over 400 items in the house (with a butt load more liability). I figured early on I'm lazy AND I'd rather do less work BUT charge more money.



What do you want for your niche?



Dan Bowers, CMI
Licensed Contractor / Builder
Certified IAQ2 Mold Inspector
Licensed HVAC Service Technician
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ITC / FLIR - Level I Infrared Thermographer
FHA - 203k Inspector / Compliance Inspector
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  #22  
Old 9/6/18, 1:16 AM
Stephen W. Stanczyk's Avatar
Stephen W. Stanczyk Stephen W. Stanczyk is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelrose View Post
To me, it is like a moisture meter or screw driver...you use it, if you have it to perform a better inspection. Because that is really what it is all about. If you are good, you are going to work and get paid. If you aren't....you won't.
And this statement is why you won't get the big IR money. It is NOT like a screwdriver or moisture meter. And it is not a normal tool. It is a specialized tool that takes specialized training. Part of the training needed to utilize this tool is the ability to sell the service. If you don't have a professional sales pitch for your specializations, then of course you won't get the work, and you will end up using an expensive tool like a screwdriver. You won't have much choice.




Stephen Stanczyk
Washington State Licensed Home Inspector # 221
InterNACHI Lifetime Member

RETIRED

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  #23  
Old 9/6/18, 5:33 AM
Paul Lesieur, CMI's Avatar
Paul Lesieur, CMI Paul Lesieur, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstanczyk View Post
People, people, people. STOP giving things away. When you include "free IR", you degrade your profession. You are driving the prices down with your lack of sales training. It doesn't matter (actually it does) what type of infrared camera you use. When you give things away for free, that means you are assigning it 0 Value. You don't see doctors giving away free xrays or exams. You don't see lawyers giving away free court representation. You don't see architects giving away free drawings / designs. You don't see Engineers giving away free calculations for repairs or designs. PROFESSIONALS don't give away their services. Hobbyists give thing away. Poor business people give things away. People with low self esteem give things away.


Treat your business like a business. You see people that get professional training get professional pricing. You think Bill Warner goes out of state for a $200 IR inspection? Or Charley Bottger? Or Chuck Evans? Hell no. You would have to add either one or two more zeroes to the total, and smart businesses pay them those large amounts. Of course they pay 5-6 figures for their top of the line cameras. Stop undercutting yourself AND your profession and SELL IR.
Hear, hear!
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  #24  
Old 9/6/18, 8:16 AM
Jeffrey R. Jonas's Avatar
Jeffrey R. Jonas Jeffrey R. Jonas is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

To paraphrase the wisdom of a longtime member and friend of this association:

"EVERY inspector is always paid what they are worth"!



Jeffrey R. Jonas
Owatonna, Minnesota



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  #25  
Old 9/6/18, 2:24 PM
David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40's Avatar
David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40 David A. Andersen, TN HI# 40 is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstanczyk View Post
And this statement is why you won't get the big IR money. It is NOT like a screwdriver or moisture meter. And it is not a normal tool. It is a specialized tool that takes specialized training. Part of the training needed to utilize this tool is the ability to sell the service. If you don't have a professional sales pitch for your specializations, then of course you won't get the work, and you will end up using an expensive tool like a screwdriver. You won't have much choice.

I'm so tired of this conversation…

But here goes anyway. Thermal imaging is not just another tool, it's a complete different profession.

What does a thermal camera tell you?
It cannot identify water.
Is not a thermometer.
It does not see termites.
It does not see air leakage.
It doesn't tell you how hot is too hot.
It doesn't measure the R-value of insulation.

Regardless how you're currently using your camera, the camera tells you nothing about these issues. A tool completes a task. A thermal camera does not complete the task it only provides information that you, the thermographer must calculate to determine what is actually there. "You" must understand when to use the camera, how to use the camera, interpret with the camera is recording, in some cases conduct intensive calculations to determine; the difference between water and air, the difference between apparent temperature and actual temperature, to determine the difference between termite tunnels and mouse tunnels, the actual source of the high moisture source, the source of the electrical circuit temperature rise and how hot it is going to get under a full load, determine the total R-value of insulated wall without looking inside.

Contrary to belief, thermal imaging is not going to become a norm for all home inspectors to provide under state laws. It is simply too much to ask from a home inspector who is a generalist.

The majority of home inspectors that use thermal imaging to identify issues do not require thermal imaging to complete task. They admit it themselves, i.e. Charlie's recent post of a high amperage fuse that visually looks like a chunk of charcoal. Yes, it's very impressive to put such pretty pictures and a report but they are often not necessary, and thermography was not required to identify the problem. However, proper use of an infrared camera can tell you what is actually causing the problem (besides the fuse is hot).

A home inspectors inability to perform the required tasks of a thermographer will subject them to significant litigation over time, when the public actually begins to understand thermography. I cannot count the number of times I have been on a project where someone had been there before me with an IR camera, challenging my findings based upon initial inadequate assessment by a camera owner. I cannot keep track of the thousands of "look what I found with thermal imaging" posted across the Internet that are improperly assessed.

You may find a blue spot with your camera, stick the spot with a moisture meter and call it a roof leak, I have done hundreds of these projects where a contractor or engineer is insistent that a TPO roof is leaking, when it was not. To begin with, a TPO roof is difficult to scan with IR and you're probably using the wrong camera to do the job. Just because moisture shows up when it rains doesn't mean the roof is leaking. Just because the blue spot has high levels of moisture concentration identified by a moisture meter does not mean it's source is a water leak. There are three sources of moisture in a building and you must account for all three. In order to do this you must understand the laws of psychrometric's. So here is one more level of education, training and experience that is required beyond pushing the power button on the thermal camera and spitting out a pretty picture. So on top of owning an expensive camera, investing time and money in thermography training, you require additional tools beyond your moisture meter (such as a hygrometer, data loggers, psychrometric chart (and how to use it), a micro manometer, and possibly a blower door. I never read about anyone talking about this equipment!?

If you want to spend five grand on a glorified flashlight to assist you in your home inspection, go for it. Because that is all an IR camera is, without adequate training and experience.

If you are going to market the use of IR in your home inspection, I recommend you keep it within your area of expertise and ability, and in perspective of which you are actually capable of doing or you may face litigation for false advertisement/claims and could lose your home inspection license.

There are home inspectors with thermal cameras and there are thermographer's. It is important that you stay on the right side of the fence. If you do home inspections with IR for free, you're a home inspector with a thermal camera (be careful how you advertise). If you are advertising that you have x-ray vision and can solve someone's building science problem (and are not qualified) beware.

For you new guys; a few years ago a home inspector here got a new thermal camera, went across the street and took a picture of his house to use as a banner/header on his website (there was no intent to diagnose buildings). Because he posted a radiometric JPEG, I decided to analyze it. In the process I found three problems with his house and two problems with his neighbors house next door. This is an example of the surprise you may get in a courtroom if your thermography call is challenged.

I did an inspection report yesterday where the master suite was excessively hot compared to adjacent rooms. Thermal imaging of the ceiling indicated a much higher temperature in the master suite than in other rooms. There was no access to the attic space above the ceiling. How would you justify calling for an intrusive inspection of the insulation and ventilation in this inaccessible space? Base your recommendations on a pretty colored thermogram showing a warm ceiling?

Even though I didn't have access, I was able to extrapolate measurements from other attic areas and calculate an estimated R-value above the ceiling to be R-2.5. Not even close to building Code!

Mathematical calculation or pretty picture? Which do you prefer as a client?

I have encountered this situation numerous times, even in Energy Star rated homes! In one case a general contractor tried to take administrative action against me for reporting that there was no insulation anywhere above the ceiling on the second floor of a two-year-old model home that was being sold. I conducted the mathematical calculations in front of his lawyers and representatives at which time insulation contractor got fed up, took out a hammer and knocked a hole in the ceiling, stuck his head up there and said "yup there's nothing up here!". Sheetrock was installed before the insulation contractor, with no access left available to them.

Can't say it will never happen to you, because it happened to me.



David A. Andersen & Associates
Clarksville - Nashville Home Inspector Lic#40 (Retired)
ITC Level III Thermographer Cert#1958
Building Science Thermographer Cert#33784
HVAC Certification EPA Cert#2046620
BPI# 5015804
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  #26  
Old 9/6/18, 2:47 PM
Roy D. Cooke, Sr's Avatar
Roy D. Cooke, Sr Roy D. Cooke, Sr is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Thanks David ,
I think there are some inspectors who should read this a few times .


All the best Roy C .
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  #27  
Old 9/6/18, 9:05 PM
Paul Lesieur, CMI's Avatar
Paul Lesieur, CMI Paul Lesieur, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

What I learned when getting my Level 1

I learned I had a long way to go to call myself an IR expert. I may or may not do my level 2 based on whether I continue to work but if I do continue a Level 2 is my minimum goal. At that point I may get a C2 and give it to the buyer and let them do the average residential IR service.
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  #28  
Old 9/7/18, 5:29 AM
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John Paul de Oliveira John Paul de Oliveira is offline
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Default Re: Level II Inspection with Flir C2

Quote:
Originally Posted by plesieur View Post
What I learned when getting my Level 1

....give it to the buyer and let them do the average residential IR service.

That is funny Paul
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