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  #31  
Old 2/15/16, 10:22 PM
Joseph G. Robinson Joseph G. Robinson is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Well good then and no I am not disappointed. LOL



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  #32  
Old 2/16/16, 12:09 AM
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI's Avatar
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI is online now
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Emmanuel ................

I'm trying to follow the post but it got real wiggy. I can't figure out if you're asking questions to learn how to better utilize a zip level; want to hammer the guy, OR ??

I've been on several jobs with engineers OR foundation contractors that use these and quite truthfully I think you could almost do the measurements quicker than follow the posts on this site.



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  #33  
Old 2/16/16, 1:01 AM
Emmanuel J. Scanlan, TREC# 7593 Emmanuel J. Scanlan, TREC# 7593 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbowers View Post
Emmanuel ................

I'm trying to follow the post but it got real wiggy. I can't figure out if you're asking questions to learn how to better utilize a zip level; want to hammer the guy, OR ??

I've been on several jobs with engineers OR foundation contractors that use these and quite truthfully I think you could almost do the measurements quicker than follow the posts on this site.
It started out as trying to understand his procedure and how he is using this to make definitive calls of slab levelness and performance of "performing", "failing", and "failed". It turned to him using the "If I tell you I'm going to have to kill you!" type defensive posture and attempting to describe the super secret Rocky & Bullwinkle decoder ring methods.

If you read the original post he is providing an X/Y chart and nifty little 2D model that means nothing without an explanation of how it was achieved and additional information regarding dimensions of slab, etc. He claims to be using a zero reference point out at a stop sign and down the street, in other words well off the actual pad itself. He goes on to explain how he has measured over 2" of "heave" at one point and yet not one visible sign around it indicating movement. A lot of incongruous statements and it all made no sense.

The procedure he's describing I have seen performed for grading and drainage (topographical surveys) of a development, pad sites, roads, etc. However now topographical survey equipment has gone real high tech using equipment such as this http://www.trimble.com/Agriculture/WM-Topo.aspx . During phase inspections I frequently see surveyors on sites running final grade measurements around homes using this specialty equipment. I see it on construction sites and have you ever noticed the graders with what appears like one of these GPS domes on it? Want to guess what that is? Pretty cool stuff!!

This same type of GPS enabled altimeters have made their way into slab level analysis work and are really accurate and blow away the Zip Level method!! I've watched a slab analysis being performed this way and the resultant data mostly loaded automatically in handheld devices to produce some really impressive X/Y graphs and 2D models that were unbelievably accurate. However those level analysis were all within the confines of the slab perimeter since the whole point is to measure the slab and not the entire pad site (area around the slab). Also the equipment is really expensive!!

We have a lot of Inspectors here running Zip Levels and unnecessarily scaring the crap out of buyers! A foundation under distress can be found without the Zip Level (as he so readily agrees) and running a level analysis without a prior baseline analysis, and without a standardized or highly documented procedure to be given to the client, does not provide a lot of value for the consumer when attempting to use the level analysis for a call of foundation performance (as he partly agrees) or for later use.

Even the Engineers here have broken down a foundation inspection into three levels with the first (Level A) being only visual to determine if stress has occurred, the second (Level B) including the level analysis measurements to determine possibly how much and possibly how much lift of the slab might be needed, and the last (Level C) going hog wild with the geological testing.

He comes to the board asking for information but tries to walk away without sharing information. What's up with that?



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  #34  
Old 2/16/16, 11:26 AM
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI's Avatar
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI is online now
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Here I've only seen them used inside:

1) By franchises like "A-Pro" as a standard part of a home inspection. It gives the buyer a reference point for their records, so 3 -5 yrs later someone else can determine if the movement has stopped OR is ongoing by measuring the same points.

2) By foundation contractors, engineers and home inspectors to visibly graph and show a buyer / seller what has moved, where its moved AND how much its moved.

3) In expert witness type work ........... 2 yrs ago in defense of another home inspector I demonstrated for a man / wife engineer family, their attorney and their expert witness engineer that yes the floors were out of level BUT were within the building standard SoP which kept the inspector out of a lawsuit. He had not said anything in his report about uneven flooring AND they were ready to hammer him. My position for him was WHY would he talk about something IF it was within the codes / SoP / etc.

Their engineer and attorney reluctantly agreed AND lawsuit went away.

I think the Zip level is excellent for these type issues. For outside I've always used a robo-level.



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  #35  
Old 2/16/16, 2:53 PM
Timothy A. Pope, TREC #7494's Avatar
Timothy A. Pope, TREC #7494 Timothy A. Pope, TREC #7494 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Interesting discussion. To answer the original thread title, yes I offer foundation measuring. I'm not familiar with this particular method of documenting the findings, but I believe it can be useful even if it requires explanation. In fact, I like the idea of the client needing to contact YOU to come back years later and take new readings for comparison. $$
You have created a "baseline" reading for them, even if not from when the slab was poured, they now have one from today and can compare later if needed.

I use and generally see a simple drawing of the floor plan with the elevation readings plotted out. The reference point is usually in the center of the house, but I may change it later based upon the readings. Many engineers and foundation repair people make the highest point the reference to show the total deflection/slope from that spot in the house.

I've taken Joseph's model and chart and made a crude drawing by plotting out the readings making the high point of + 2.1 inches the reference (REF 0) and showing the other measurements in relation to that spot. I don't know the orientation of where those readings were actually taken, so my drawing just assumes it a simple rectangle and the bottom is the front of the house. So from this we can see that there is an acute high spot (could be a heave, could be some other anomaly) and the slab is at least low at the front, right corner.

I'd need to know more about where damage was visible, how the garage readings were taken, etc. to say much else. As a home inspector to my client, I am probably going to say even less.

Any other opinions?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ElevationDrawing.pdf (18.1 KB, 522 views)



Timothy Pope
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  #36  
Old 2/16/16, 6:06 PM
Joseph G. Robinson Joseph G. Robinson is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Dan, Tim,

Thanks for the feedback!

The method we use gives a few valuable points it tells if there is a reflection greater than the desired 1.5" or less and only generally where the deflection occurred. I have done it on several homes and often times see related movements in trim, cracks in walls, windows or doors sticking etc. This example was unique somewhat in that the obvious cracks were in the front, and not as obvious at least to me matching the floor. There were lots of other symptoms of foundation movement but none that were consistent to me at least with the readings from measuring the floor.

I'm currently using a process where I do the outside, roof, garage, inside, then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven, signs of moistire I can put my meter on before doing the floor. Thinking about doing the floor first.



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  #37  
Old 2/16/16, 7:41 PM
Nolan Kienitz's Avatar
Nolan Kienitz Nolan Kienitz is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobinson11 View Post
Dan, Tim,

Thanks for the feedback!

The method we use gives a few valuable points it tells if there is a reflection greater than the desired 1.5" or less and only generally where the deflection occurred. I have done it on several homes and often times see related movements in trim, cracks in walls, windows or doors sticking etc. This example was unique somewhat in that the obvious cracks were in the front, and not as obvious at least to me matching the floor. There were lots of other symptoms of foundation movement but none that were consistent to me at least with the readings from measuring the floor.

I'm currently using a process where I do the outside, roof, garage, inside, then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven, signs of moistire I can put my meter on before doing the floor. Thinking about doing the floor first.
Joseph,

This has been an interesting thread. I have my own personal opinions after having done residential inspections for 15 years and commercial for 20, but I won't bore you with that.

I'm curious, you are a newly licensed TREC inspector. Your comments in this thread and at your website seem to be interchangeable with "I" and "We".

Are you in a "multi-inspector" firm with several folks working on each inspection or is it just you?

Also, what is your supporting background to be doing all that you do with such authority?

Again ... just curious.



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Nolan E. Kienitz
TREC # 7095
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  #38  
Old 2/17/16, 5:02 AM
Chuck Evans's Avatar
Chuck Evans Chuck Evans is online now
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobinson11 View Post
then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven,
A thermometer is a more appropriate tool for this.



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  #39  
Old 2/17/16, 12:15 PM
Cale Cameron, #21098's Avatar
Cale Cameron, #21098 Cale Cameron, #21098 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobinson11 View Post
Been doing foundation measurements on my inspections and it is rather enlightening.

Here is a 10 month old warranty inspection home. (Yeah it has some magnificent vent stacks and I wonder how far they can go before having to support them) With large cracks. And a heave right in the middle with over 2" of deviation in the slab.

And yes those two little gutters on the front, well that's all the gutters this house has.
Joseph,

I can tell by the pic who the builder was. Wondering what area of DFW this home is in? This house could almost belong to a close family member, other than a few details. Just wondering so I can take a look at their home next time I'm out there to get an idea if they should worry.

Thanks for your time and the info.



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  #40  
Old 2/17/16, 7:46 PM
Joseph G. Robinson Joseph G. Robinson is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccameron View Post
Joseph,

I can tell by the pic who the builder was. Wondering what area of DFW this home is in? This house could almost belong to a close family member, other than a few details. Just wondering so I can take a look at their home next time I'm out there to get an idea if they should worry.

Thanks for your time and the info.
I'll shoot you a PM



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  #41  
Old 12/10/17, 9:41 PM
Eric Velasquez Eric Velasquez is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

What program do you use to plot/graph your results? What program to draw an elevation map/diagram of the house?
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  #42  
Old 12/11/17, 3:08 PM
John Cahill, TREC 855 John Cahill, TREC 855 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

About how long does it take to do the elevations? Do you include the data and sketch in the report? A nice value depending on time.

A point you made long ago in the thread is that no evidence of movement was seen at the high point (2 inches I think). That is a great comment. TREC Standards require reporting slope without the use of an elevation tool. There are many times alarming slope cannot be seen or perceived (lighting, personal feel, furniture obstructions etc). So-called experts have hung inspectors on slope arguments and TREC has sanctioned the defending inspector. I say something like "I did not perceive or see unusual slope. The perception or visibility of slope can be disguised by conditions such as furnishings, lighting, and flooring. An elevation survey is the most reliable method of judging slope. Elevation studies are provided by foundation specialists."

I am not as detailed as you. If I perceive movement I recommend an engineer and am off to the next job. I probably would have recommended an engineer solely on the basis of the stone mortar crack and age of the home in your original post. Nonetheless, well done on your work.
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  #43  
Old 12/13/17, 2:51 PM
Joseph W. Keresztury's Avatar
Joseph W. Keresztury Joseph W. Keresztury is offline
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

Joseph G. Robinson, we do a lot of foundation level surveys with the Zip Level. We offer it as an option to all clients, whether it's a new home, pre owned home, commercial property, etc. I've got a sample attached here. We usually establish the reference point at one of the furthest back corners.
Attached Thumbnails
Anyone offer foundation measurement?-slab-survey-sample-png  



Joe Keresztury
JWK Inspections
Home Inspections in San Antonio,
Schertz, Cibolo, New Braunfels, Boerne
and all surrounding South Texas areas
www.jwkhomeinspections.com

Last edited by jkeresztury; 12/13/17 at 2:59 PM..
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  #44  
Old 12/18/17, 11:31 AM
John Cahill, TREC 855 John Cahill, TREC 855 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

What software do you use?
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  #45  
Old 12/25/17, 12:57 PM
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI's Avatar
Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI Dan Bowers, CMI, ACI is online now
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Default Re: Anyone offer foundation measurement?

One of our local A-Pro franchises use something in Word for the drawing



Dan Bowers, CMI
Licensed Contractor / Builder
Certified IAQ2 Mold Inspector
Licensed HVAC Service Technician
EDI Certified Stucco / EIFS Inspector
Certified Commercial Building Inspector
iNACHI – US Member of the Year 2010
ITC / FLIR - Level I Infrared Thermographer
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