It has become apparent to me, after a short amount of time doing these inspections, that if you do one “stand alone” and do it properly, it is fairly comprehensive.
The wind mits are mainly verifying specifics, 4 points are actually asking if specific systems are in good working order. To me that means you actually have to check these systems to properly fill out the forms.
The real question is how do all the low ball inspectors properly perform these 4 point inspections in 15 minutes and charge $50 dollars to do so??
Anyone??
Meeker???
Sean I don’t have an answer for you. But, I charge $120 for a standalone 4 point and think I’m under charging but unfortunately in my specific area it’s extremely price competitive and for every 10 I get at my price I lose 2 or 3 to the $50 to $70 inspectors. And there are many down this way. I agree with you it’s getting to the point where it’s almost a mini inspection. I prefer when they’re added to a regular inspection and not stand alones.
Adding it on makes easy sense. You have already done the inspection, its basically filling out the form at that point. But by itself is another story. Interesting what some will work for.
I rarely get 4 points from new customers. They almost always are from people who I have done wind mits or home inspections or consultations for. I do not even list the 4 point prices because of licensing in the clients eye all that matters is price. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can do them and so many fools bundle they figure why not go with the cheapest
I HATE 4 POINTS. Except when I upsell the cit version for $150
Commercial properties require inspections by law in Miami dade and Broward counties. They are called 40 year recertifications . The law was passed after a catastrophic structural failure in the 70’s.
I was just having this conversation today Sean, it would seem that most of the inspectors I have spoken with prefer not to do them at all, unless they are added to the full inspection. My question today was: How extensive should I really be when doing the 4 point? I looked at an inspection that was performed for a client when they bought the house. It was only a 4-point. The day after they bought the house the water backed up into the home and they found that they needed to replace 120’ of drain pipe to the street. My first thought, as is yours I assume: “They should have gotten a full inspection.”
When I read the report, there is nothing in it at all about any issues with anything. Nothing. It is therefore my conclusion that he didn’t run all the water at once. This is what led me to wonder what all my cohorts are doing in the field. How extensive are you in your 4-point only inspections?
My burning question is who becomes responsible for things like back ups, when the insurance company is asked to pay for flood damage. In this case, since a verified 4 point inspection was performed, the inspector said it was in good working order.
I recently read where a home inspector got hit with a 120K lawsuit from an insurance company, because he failed to report csst needing to be retrofitted. The hot potato got passed around to him. It wasn’t even a code issue, just the lack of a bond wire.
I wonder if any claims will ever be denied or have been due to improper documentation.
I prefer to not do them as well, but when I do them it is a visual inspection only with photos. I do not run or test any of the systems. I estimate age and give my opinion of the condition of the system. Most of the homes I inspect are well maintained and lived in. I just ask the homeowner if they have any plumbing leaks or roof leaks. They say no so I believe them. Most of the time people are very straightforward and tell me what was wrong and what they have fixed recently. If it is tenant occupied they let you know of even the smallest issues. Who wants to live with a leak? I use a slightly modified NACHI four point form, have been using it for years with no issues.
Insurance inspections are a transfer of liability, plain and simple. When a 1802 form can be used to sue you over a non-wind mitigation issue…it’s a code inspection. The courts ruled it a code inspection, the insurance company remained silent, and the under-writer wasn’t even a factor. 4-points are no different, you are being asked to verify/certify/confirm condition of a structure so the underwriter can determine insurability. You’re a licensed professional charging a premium to perform a service, that always included liability. If you have insurance, you are going to be sued…
(a) Section
468.832(1)(a), F.S.
Violation of any provision of
Chapter 468, Part XV or Section 455.227(1), F.S.
Fine up to $1000, plus reprimand, probation, or suspension.
Fine up to $5000, plus probation, suspension, or revocation.
(f) Section
468.832(1)(f), F.S.
Advertising goods or services in a manner that is fraudulent, false, deceptive, or misleading in form or content.
Fine up to $1000, plus reprimand, probation, or suspension.
Fine up to $5000, plus reprimand, probation, suspension, or revocation.
(j) Section
455.227(1)(a), F.S.
Making false, fraudulent, deceptive
or misleading representations in or related to the practice of the licensee’s profession.
Fine up to $1000, plus reprimand, probation, or suspension.
Fine up to $5000, plus reprimand, probation, suspension, or revocation.
(q) Section
455.227(1)(m), F.S.
Making deceptive, untrue or fraudulent representations in or
related to the practice of the licensee’s profession.
Fine up to $1000, plus reprimand, suspension, or revocation.
Fine up to $5000, plus revocation, or denial of license.
How can you not run or test any system and say they are in good working order. You just verified that the heating and cooling worked and that none of the sinks leaked, among other things. If this is what you are doing the good times will only last for so long before you are hit with a law suit
No where in my report does it say the system works or does not work. I estimate age, note the type, list visual condition as good, fair, poor and any comments pertaining to that (dented, charred, dirty, etc).
Edited to add:
For electrical add to that list above aluminum wiring, K&T wiring, GFCI present, exposed wiring noted (all yes/no questions), amp size and recent upgrades year estimation. For plumbing add piping types observed, shut off valves present, # of bathrooms, TPRV, fire sprinkler, PB noticed, year of upgrades and observed leaks. For roof add estimated life remaining, # of layers, damaged or missing flashing/shingles. Its pretty simple guys. If your doing more than that you are working more than you have to. At least in my area, and I don’t even think the agents care about all of those questions either. That is my list, I very rarely get follow up calls to ask for any more info.
And the form asks if there are any leak in the plumbing system or any electrical deficiencies, or any leaks in the roof. Denial will not keep you from getting sued. That is like saying ignorance of the law is a defense. But then again, for $75 for the inspection I guess all the parties are getting what they paid for, which is nothing.
I kidding aside, you need to be careful with what you are doing my friend. I think most here will agree and I would consider deleting that post.
4-point inspections are not regulated by the OIR, you can make your own form or another version. But, make no mistake about it, when you create your own form it is required to have the same information as the certified version you are copying.
From the Citizens 4-point form, of which most are a copy of:
*"This form has been made available to verify the types, ages and conditions of a home’s four major systems to determine **eligibility/acceptability with Citizens Property Insurance Corporation. *If another inspection form is used, it must provide the same photos and level of detail as found on this report"
[FONT=Times New Roman]**A 4-Point Inspection is required for all homeowner, dwelling and mobile home **applications for properties over 30 years old.
The Citizens 4-Point Inspection form includes the minimum data needed for underwriting to properly evaluate a property application. While this specific form is not required, any other inspection submitted for consideration must include at least this level of detail to be acceptable to Citizens.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]The Florida-licensed inspector is required to certify the condition of the electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems. “Acceptable Condition” means that each system is working as intended and there are no visible hazards or deficiencies.
This section of the 4-Point inspection must be completed with full details/descriptions if ***any ***of the following are noted on the inspection: Updates (provide full details of the types of updates, date completed and by whom) Any system determined ***NOT ***to be in good working order. Any visible hazards/deficiencies are present
‘The Florida-licensed inspector is require to certify the condition of the electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems. Acceptable condition means that each system is working as intended and there are no visible hazards or deficiencies.’
If you don’t test and inspect the systems how are you going to defend that statement. The for also asks for 'any visible hazards / deficiencies are present: to be noted on the comment section of the report and the inspection ‘must be completed with full details / descriptions if any of the following are noted on the inspection.’
Your client obviously have not filed any claims yet. Its only a matter of time before one of them does. We have multiple claims going on in our area right now over these forms. But hey, the insurance agents must love you. I just hope you are putting 50% of what you make aside for claims because if you have E&O it probably will not cover you.
