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  #31  
Old 4/27/13, 9:34 AM
Roy Lewis, CMI's Avatar
Roy Lewis, CMI Roy Lewis, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

The 2012 Florida Statutes
468.8319 Prohibitions; penalties.—
(f) Perform or offer to perform any repairs to a home on which the inspector or the inspector’s company has prepared a home inspection report. This paragraph does not apply to a home warranty company that is affiliated with or retains a home inspector to perform repairs pursuant to a claim made under a home warranty contract.




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  #32  
Old 4/27/13, 10:24 AM
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Charley L. Bottger Charley L. Bottger is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Wow who did you Fl guys P I S S off sounds to me as if you will not be allowed to say anything negative about a residential property Realtors will just luv ya they will be sending boxes of candy and flowers to your office of business.



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  #33  
Old 4/27/13, 10:43 AM
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Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurray4 View Post
HI's in Florida have spent all their time trying to limit other license holders.Stop focusing on limiting other license holders.
Been that way around here since I've joined. You can never get ahead if you are to busy trying to HOLD OTHERS BACK. No one listens to me then or now.



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  #34  
Old 4/27/13, 10:59 AM
Steve Taylor, CMI Steve Taylor, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurray4 View Post
Preston's comments are on target. I have posted about this repeatedly.

HI's in Florida have spent all their time trying to limit other license holders. Instead of working together with other license holders to develop a sensible set of Standards. I do not know if this draft will be pushed forward. But, if HI's want to remain competitive in the State, their organizations better get it together. Stop focusing on limiting other license holders.

The new definition of a Conspector: A multi licensed inspector who is unlimited in what he/she can inspect.
With all due respect, it would appear that it is actually the other way around in that other license holders (contractors, realtors, glazing contractors, etc) are seeking to limit the professional home inspectors with arbitrary and capricious (look it up) language that they were successful in selling to DBPR's rules attorney (who should also look up the legal definition of arbitrary and capricious). The attorney might want to start with reviewing F.S. 120.572(d).



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  #35  
Old 4/27/13, 11:12 AM
Steve Taylor, CMI Steve Taylor, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Obviously, I have concerns with the language in paragraph (3) beginning page 28 of the document. That section enumerates actions considered “beyond the scope of a home inspector license”. I have concerns with several of the line items listed as beyond the scope of a home inspector license and offer the following in response:

A (1). Shall not determine: 1. The strength, adequacy, effectiveness, or efficiency of any system or component;
Home inspectors have always identified over spanned joists, rafters, beams that are deflecting or failing, as well as HVAC systems that may be ineffective due to a disconnected duct or crimped duct. Prohibiting a home inspector from identifying these obvious defects seems counter to the very purpose of a home inspection. Furthermore, I know of no statutory limitation that prohibits a “laymen” or homeowner- or homeowner’s neighbor friend who watched HGTV on Saturday morning from identifying a readily observable defect in a system or component. A licensed home inspector would have or should have specialized training and has demonstrated competence in these issues by having passed a proctored examination for licensure. Prohibiting a home inspector from identifying these readily observable defects that a homeowner or any other lay person could observe seems arbitrary and capricious and a blatant attempt to undermine the value of a professional home inspection.
A (2). Shall not determine: 2. The causes of any condition or deficiency;
This would appear to be in contradiction to section (5) of the standards of practice – general section: (5) If not self-evident to the client at the time of inspection, the inspector shall give a reason why, in his or her opinion, the system or component was reported as significantly deficient or near the end of its service life.
This language, as written, would effectively put the inspector in violation of the rules if he fails to “give a reason why, in his or her opinion, the system or component was reported as significantly deficient” and would also but the inspector in violation of the rule if he does determine the cause of any condition of deficiency. No further comment necessary on this one.
A(4). Shall not determine: 4. Future conditions including, but not limited to, failure of systems and components;
This provision would appear to be in conflict with section (5) of the standards of practice- general section: Per section 5, the inspector shall determine if a component or system is near the end of its service life. Determining remaining service life would appear to be determining future condition of a system or component. Again, as written, the inspector would be in violation of the rule for failing to perform and also be in violation for performing.
A.(6). Shall not determine: 6. Compliance with regulatory requirements (codes, regulations, laws, ordinances, etc.), manufacturer specifications, installation procedures or instructions;
All inspections have historically been based on code provisions, manufacturer’s specifications, installation procedures or instructions for a given component or system. Clearly, these base documents or guiding principles have been fundamental to inspections of all types. Without have a “measuring stick”, how would an inspector determine that a system or component if significantly deficient? Clearly, this language is arbitrary and capricious and a blatant attempt to undermine the value of a professional home inspection.
A( Shall not determine: 8. The advisability of the purchase of the property.
Isn’t that what the home inspection and report actually does? Advise the client on the condition of the property so that they can make a decision on the advisability of the purchase of the property?

A.(9and 10) Shall not determine: 9. The presence of potentially hazardous plants or animals including, but not limited to wood destroying organisms or diseases harmful to humans;
10. The presence of any environmental hazards including, but not limited to fungi, molds, toxins, carcinogens, noise, and contaminants in soil, water, and air;



If I am not mistaken, isn’t it been determined to be within the scope of a home inspector’s license to identify mold in a home if less than 10 square feet? In addition, home inspectors have historically always identified rotten wood, trim, wood rot/deterioration at all wood finishes within and at the exterior of the home. Again, provisions 9 and 10 would appear to be arbitrary and capricious.

A.(14). Shall not determine: 14. Conditions that might affect the ability to obtain insurance and/or the price of insurance;

Many home inspectors have historically provided insurance related inspections and continue to do so in a post licensing environment. Insurance related inspections are not currently regulated by DBPR. Consequently, reporting on conditions that might affect the ability to obtain insurance and/or the price of insurance would also not be regulated by DBPR. As such, this provision would appear to be arbitrary and capricious.
A. (16) Shall not determine: 16. The integrity of thermal glass seals;
Fogged windows are readily observable – even by a lay person. Home Inspectors have historically reported fogged thermal pane windows during the course of a home inspection and report. Furthermore, most state real estate contracts specifically address identification of fogged windows as a defect that should be reported during the course of the inspection.

A (17) Shall not determine: 17. The presence of manufacturers’ defects in any product, material, component, equipment, or system, or information related to recall notices;
Recall notices are readily available to the general public and in the public domain. Consequently, prohibiting licensed home inspectors from providing this information to the client would be restricting the rights of private citizen to convey publicly available information to the client. This provision, as written, would appear to be arbitrary and capricious.

A(1 Shall not determine: 18. Installation conformance to manufacturers’ instructions for any product, component, element, device, or system;
Manufacturer’s installation instructions for products, components, elements, devices, and systems are readily available to the general public and in the public domain. Consequently, prohibiting licensed home inspectors from providing this information to the client would be restricting the rights of private citizen to convey publicly available information to the client. This provision, as written, would appear to be arbitrary and capricious.

Finally, the rule, as written, may also be in conflict with F.S. 120.572(d): The agency must demonstrate that the proposed rule: d.Is not arbitrary or capricious. A rule is arbitrary if it is not supported by logic or the necessary facts; a rule is capricious if it is adopted without thought or reason or is irrational;

Clearly, the rule, as written, has contradictory language in the “standards of practice” section and the “beyond the scope of a home inspector’s license” section. I believe that it is time to quit pointing fingers at home inspectors and/or blaming different factions for this mess. Professional home inspectors need to come together (at least for now) and work together to stop this offensive language in the proposed rule. I would suggest contacting your local representative and Senator and ask for help as a constituent in their district to prevent this over reaching language from being adopted.



Steve Taylor
Taylor Inspection Services, Inc.
Atlantic Beach Florida 32233
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  #36  
Old 4/27/13, 11:12 AM
Michael J. Meeker, CMI's Avatar
Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Gee I wonder why.....Before licensing I never heard a contractor mention a home inspector. I still have not except here. Before joining nachi I never heard of being a member of a biz org and that org tells you you are not allowed to do other things you have a license to do just because you happen to be a member of the org. Ridiculous. It is done under the guise of protecting the client, what a joke. The client is not an idiot and should be able to hire whoever they choose to do whatever they want. The reason it is in the C.O.E. itself is for one reason only. TO PROTECT HOME INSPECTORS WHO HAVE NO OTHER LICENSES. The founding fathers mistakenly think Contractors will do inspections for free in an attempt to find work. There has never been a worse idea to try to get work. First you bust your a s s for 4 or 5 hrs then you bust your a s s another hour or to putting together a proposal then you compete against 5+ other guys that are likely craiglisters and unlicensed at that. How much work do you think one would get with that method? It does however stop a client that you have a great relationship with from hiring you do do something else you are qualified to do even if they want and trust you, if you are honest to nachi you must say no. seems a shame to me.

The only time I can see inspections leading to work is like what Paul Bange does but that is not for prepurchase or insurance inspections. They offer a free storm inspection to see if your roof will hold up to a storm. I imagine they find problems then make sales but even that does not stop the client from DOING WHAT THEY SHOULD DO ANYHOW get other proposals. If they do not they are fools. It is not our job to protect fools.



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  #37  
Old 4/27/13, 11:25 AM
Joseph Burkeson, CMI's Avatar
Joseph Burkeson, CMI Joseph Burkeson, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

I love licensing, the $99 home inspection printed on 3-pages will become the norm, thank you Jebus.

Inspect99.Com



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  #38  
Old 4/27/13, 11:29 AM
Steve Taylor, CMI Steve Taylor, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeeker View Post
Gee I wonder why.....Before licensing I never heard a contractor mention a home inspector. I still have not except here. Before joining nachi I never heard of being a member of a biz org and that org tells you you are not allowed to do other things you have a license to do just because you happen to be a member of the org. Ridiculous. It is done under the guise of protecting the client, what a joke. The client is not an idiot and should be able to hire whoever they choose to do whatever they want. The reason it is in the C.O.E. itself is for one reason only. TO PROTECT HOME INSPECTORS WHO HAVE NO OTHER LICENSES. The founding fathers mistakenly think Contractors will do inspections for free in an attempt to find work. There has never been a worse idea to try to get work. First you bust your a s s for 4 or 5 hrs then you bust your a s s another hour or to putting together a proposal then you compete against 5+ other guys that are likely craiglisters and unlicensed at that. How much work do you think one would get with that method? It does however stop a client that you have a great relationship with from hiring you do do something else you are qualified to do even if they want and trust you, if you are honest to nachi you must say no. seems a shame to me.

The only time I can see inspections leading to work is like what Paul Bange does but that is not for prepurchase or insurance inspections. They offer a free storm inspection to see if your roof will hold up to a storm. I imagine they find problems then make sales but even that does not stop the client from DOING WHAT THEY SHOULD DO ANYHOW get other proposals. If they do not they are fools. It is not our job to protect fools.
I would speculate that not all contractors are as smart as you. On a separate note, I am wishing you much success in your search for a full time job. I sincerely hope that you find one that pays well, requires much overtime and long hours, and pays you well for the long hours so that you will be able to support your family.



Steve Taylor
Taylor Inspection Services, Inc.
Atlantic Beach Florida 32233
904-247-6700
www.taylorinspectionservices.com
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  #39  
Old 4/27/13, 11:35 AM
Michael J. Meeker, CMI's Avatar
Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Thanks.
I am sure many would appreciate me not having the time to chat here as well

I do not feel I will be missed and then everyone will be able to sit around hold hands and sing Kumbaya like a great big happy family.



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  #40  
Old 4/27/13, 12:22 PM
Doug Edwards Doug Edwards is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Or you can just look at this that the HI is no longer responsible for any issues, long term discrepancies, etc. If you end up in court just whip out the new law and say, "Your Honor, I could have said something about the mold (PB, aluminum wiring, etc, etc.) but the law does not allow me to do that. IAW the FL law I am not "qualified or licensed" to make those determinations. Boy, I sure wish I could have but FL does not recognize Home inspectors as nothing more than "point and shoot" casual observers. We can point at it and shoot our mouths off but we can not expound on anything. Once the RE agents find they are now the ones who will have to explain all the finding, they too become the focal point for any future lawsuits if they don't do it right.





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  #41  
Old 4/27/13, 12:22 PM
Steve Taylor, CMI Steve Taylor, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Can we all agree that the language in "beyond the scope section" of the proposed rule is flawed, over reaching, and appears to meet the legal definition of arbitrary and capricious? If we can come together (just on this issue) and can agree that the language should be removed, there may be a course of action to reach that objective.



Steve Taylor
Taylor Inspection Services, Inc.
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  #42  
Old 4/27/13, 12:33 PM
Steve Taylor, CMI Steve Taylor, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by dedwards View Post
Or you can just look at this that the HI is no longer responsible for any issues, long term discrepancies, etc. If you end up in court just whip out the new law and say, "Your Honor, I could have said something about the mold (PB, aluminum wiring, etc, etc.) but the law does not allow me to do that. IAW the FL law I am not "qualified or licensed" to make those determinations. Boy, I sure wish I could have but FL does not recognize Home inspectors as nothing more than "point and shoot" casual observers. We can point at it and shoot our mouths off but we can not expound on anything. Once the RE agents find they are now the ones who will have to explain all the finding, they too become the focal point for any future lawsuits if they don't do it right.
While your logic may be sound, the current draft language devalues the professional home inspector and the home inspection profession. The language favors the minimalist home inspector, the Realtor, Contractor, Glazing industry, and every other special interest. The language allows the minimalist home inspector to hide behind the language in an effort to reduce liability exposure. This minimalist approach will drive the competent and professional inspectors from the profession as they will not want to compromise their values, ethics, and professional fees to compete with the minimalist. So much for consumer protection (which is what the stated intent of home inspector licensing )



Steve Taylor
Taylor Inspection Services, Inc.
Atlantic Beach Florida 32233
904-247-6700
www.taylorinspectionservices.com
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  #43  
Old 4/27/13, 12:38 PM
Michael J. Meeker, CMI's Avatar
Michael J. Meeker, CMI Michael J. Meeker, CMI is online now
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor7 View Post
(which is what the stated intent of home inspector licensing )
Which I TOLD you all was ridiculous to begin with.

I suggest you all try to get rid of licensing if possible maybe it would be easier. Oh yeah you guys fought that when you had the chance to get rid of it also.

I am amazed that any of you actually thought getting the State involved in your business was a good idea. Why, Why, Why? Let this be a lesson to all inspectors in areas without licensing. Prove your worth on your own do not try to have the State legitimize you.



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Call 954-922-0584 or E-Mail Me For The Best Consultations or Inspections in Florida.
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  #44  
Old 4/27/13, 1:06 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor7 View Post
While your logic may be sound, the current draft language devalues the professional home inspector and the home inspection profession. The language favors the minimalist home inspector, the Realtor, Contractor, Glazing industry, and every other special interest. The language allows the minimalist home inspector to hide behind the language in an effort to reduce liability exposure. This minimalist approach will drive the competent and professional inspectors from the profession as they will not want to compromise their values, ethics, and professional fees to compete with the minimalist. So much for consumer protection (which is what the stated intent of home inspector licensing )
I can hardly wait!!!
My new form and company, Magnum Inspections clear forms inc!
I already have every home inspection report I will do under these proposed guidelines, done. I can even bring them to the inspection!!! This will be great. I will walk around the house, look at everything, tell the clients what I found wrong, then hand them a blank report! Where is my check?

I guess I will have to make a trip to Tallahassee and straighten some people out. Who has bail money?
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  #45  
Old 4/27/13, 1:07 PM
Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI Eric C. Van De Ven, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Recall Check will not be permitted in Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeeker View Post
Which I TOLD you all was ridiculous to begin with.

I suggest you all try to get rid of licensing if possible maybe it would be easier. Oh yeah you guys fought that when you had the chance to get rid of it also.

I am amazed that any of you actually thought getting the State involved in your business was a good idea. Why, Why, Why? Let this be a lesson to all inspectors in areas without licensing. Prove your worth on your own do not try to have the State legitimize you.
I have said this to you before and you never answered, so I will say it again, I am sure you will gladly receive the States decision to remove your GC license with no problem, because, you don't want the State to interfere, right?
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